Women pastors

[Rumple]

Again, Let's please dispense with the Red Herrings of Muslim women, Muslim beliefs and get back back to the topic at hand of women CHRISTIAN pastors.

Does anyone remember Rachel as a pastor?

"And while he yet spake with them, Rachel came with her father's sheep: for she kept them." Gen 29:9

Isn't a keeper of sheep a pastor?

Why is it that every verse you women pastor people use to back your position is such an incredible stretch or grotesquely twisted to mean something it does not mean while you ignore the clear verses that oppose you? Unbelievable.

sw

I was not backing anything. I was simply asking a question. You are a bit touchy. I have been on this forum for about two full days and already I am unpopular and classified. Remember:

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." Prov 21:2

This verse applies to me and also to you.

It did not appear you were just asking a question but if you were then I apologize for misreading you. You said does anyone remember Rachel as a pastor? And then you followed with isn't a keeper of sheep a pastor? Your questions seemed more rhetorical than inquisitive in the context of this particular thread.

sw

Apology accepted! We certainly do not agree on some things, but there is not reason for personalities. I was, in fact, asking for an opinion on the verse I cited. Rachel was in fact a pastor in the strictest sense of the word. The meaning in English has changes somewhat over the years, but in Spanish for example the word 'pastor' could readily be used as both the pastor of a church group or as a shepherd of wool bearing sheep.

[st. Worm]

Again, Let's please dispense with the Red Herrings of Muslim women, Muslim beliefs and get back back to the topic at hand of women CHRISTIAN pastors.

Does anyone remember Rachel as a pastor?

"And while he yet spake with them, Rachel came with her father's sheep: for she kept them." Gen 29:9

Isn't a keeper of sheep a pastor?

Why is it that every verse you women pastor people use to back your position is such an incredible stretch or grotesquely twisted to mean something it does not mean while you ignore the clear verses that oppose you? Unbelievable.

sw

I was not backing anything. I was simply asking a question. You are a bit touchy. I have been on this forum for about two full days and already I am unpopular and classified. Remember:

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." Prov 21:2

This verse applies to me and also to you.

It did not appear you were just asking a question but if you were then I apologize for misreading you. You said does anyone remember Rachel as a pastor? And then you followed with isn't a keeper of sheep a pastor? Your questions seemed more rhetorical than inquisitive in the context of this particular thread.

sw

Apology accepted! We certainly do not agree on some things, but there is not reason for personalities. I was, in fact, asking for an opinion on the verse I cited. Rachel was in fact a pastor in the strictest sense of the word. The meaning in English has changes somewhat over the years, but in Spanish for example the word 'pastor' could readily be used as both the pastor of a church group or as a shepherd of wool bearing sheep.

But you agree this thread has nothing to do with keepers of four-legged sheep and the fact she was a "pastor" of sheep is irrelevant to this question so therefore I still don't really understand your point.

sw

[Rumple]

Again, Let's please dispense with the Red Herrings of Muslim women, Muslim beliefs and get back back to the topic at hand of women CHRISTIAN pastors.

Does anyone remember Rachel as a pastor?

"And while he yet spake with them, Rachel came with her father's sheep: for she kept them." Gen 29:9

Isn't a keeper of sheep a pastor?

Why is it that every verse you women pastor people use to back your position is such an incredible stretch or grotesquely twisted to mean something it does not mean while you ignore the clear verses that oppose you? Unbelievable.

sw

I was not backing anything. I was simply asking a question. You are a bit touchy. I have been on this forum for about two full days and already I am unpopular and classified. Remember:

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." Prov 21:2

This verse applies to me and also to you.

It did not appear you were just asking a question but if you were then I apologize for misreading you. You said does anyone remember Rachel as a pastor? And then you followed with isn't a keeper of sheep a pastor? Your questions seemed more rhetorical than inquisitive in the context of this particular thread.

sw

Apology accepted! We certainly do not agree on some things, but there is not reason for personalities. I was, in fact, asking for an opinion on the verse I cited. Rachel was in fact a pastor in the strictest sense of the word. The meaning in English has changes somewhat over the years, but in Spanish for example the word 'pastor' could readily be used as both the pastor of a church group or as a shepherd of wool bearing sheep.

But you agree this thread has nothing to do with keepers of four-legged sheep and the fact she was a "pastor" of sheep is irrelevant to this question so therefore I still don't really understand your point.

sw

But keepers of natural sheep do have something to do with keepers of God people. Both should be taking on the odor of their flock. Both flocks do in fact stink, the former naturally and the latter before God.

In the OT women as well as men were natural shepherds or pastors. You would perhaps say that the writings of Paul in particular have changed this in the NT with regard to God's people. The OT often show a natural picture of the spiritual in the NT such as the respective natural roles of men and women, the latter needing to be in subjection to the former.

I am not saying you are wrong, but I please at least consider some of what I have presented here in one of my earlier posts as summed up in the following paragraph.

Spiritual women today are the Church and include both natural men and women which as such are to be silent in the Church when a minister is ministering God's Word via preaching or teaching. Spiritual men, on the other hand today are the ministers taking the active role Christ as the head teaching and preaching. Again both men and women are included in this group of spritually active ministers according to their calling at a given moment. Even a male pastor while listening to another minister takes on the silent role of a woman spiritually. Afterall, are we not all to be or do we not all, at least, seek to be part of Bride of Christ which is a woman? If you believe that this not possible, why not?

[st. Worm]

Again, Let's please dispense with the Red Herrings of Muslim women, Muslim beliefs and get back back to the topic at hand of women CHRISTIAN pastors.

Does anyone remember Rachel as a pastor?

"And while he yet spake with them, Rachel came with her father's sheep: for she kept them." Gen 29:9

Isn't a keeper of sheep a pastor?

Why is it that every verse you women pastor people use to back your position is such an incredible stretch or grotesquely twisted to mean something it does not mean while you ignore the clear verses that oppose you? Unbelievable.

sw

I was not backing anything. I was simply asking a question. You are a bit touchy. I have been on this forum for about two full days and already I am unpopular and classified. Remember:

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." Prov 21:2

This verse applies to me and also to you.

It did not appear you were just asking a question but if you were then I apologize for misreading you. You said does anyone remember Rachel as a pastor? And then you followed with isn't a keeper of sheep a pastor? Your questions seemed more rhetorical than inquisitive in the context of this particular thread.

sw

Apology accepted! We certainly do not agree on some things, but there is not reason for personalities. I was, in fact, asking for an opinion on the verse I cited. Rachel was in fact a pastor in the strictest sense of the word. The meaning in English has changes somewhat over the years, but in Spanish for example the word 'pastor' could readily be used as both the pastor of a church group or as a shepherd of wool bearing sheep.

But you agree this thread has nothing to do with keepers of four-legged sheep and the fact she was a "pastor" of sheep is irrelevant to this question so therefore I still don't really understand your point.

sw

But keepers of natural sheep do have something to do with keepers of God people. Both should be taking on the odor of their flock. Both flocks do in fact stink, the former naturally and the latter before God.

In the OT women as well as men were natural shepherds or pastors. You would perhaps say that the writings of Paul in particular have changed this in the NT with regard to God's people. The OT often show a natural picture of the spiritual in the NT such as the respective natural roles of men and women, the latter needing to be in subjection to the former.

I am not saying you are wrong, but I please at least consider some of what I have presented here in one of my earlier posts as summed up in the following paragraph.

Spiritual women today are the Church and include both natural men and women which as such are to be silent in the Church when a minister is ministering God's Word via preaching or teaching. Spiritual men, on the other hand today are the ministers taking the active role Christ as the head teaching and preaching. Again both men and women are included in this group of spritually active ministers according to their calling at a given moment. Even a male pastor while listening to another minister takes on the silent role of a woman spiritually. Afterall, are we not all to be or do we not all, at least, seek to be part of Bride of Christ which is a woman? If you believe that this not possible, why not?

But most of us understand that Christ himself is represented in worship by the pastor and that is one reason why Paul believes the office of pastor should be limited to men only. It is the pastor that brings the Word of God (Christ) to the Bride. The church is the Bride and the pastor stands in the stead of Christ bringing Word and Sacrament. You cannot just arbitrarily ignore Paul's clear instructions regarding women's and men's roles. The silence of women Paul is talking about is actually preaching. Men, not women, should preach with the authority of God. If you are trying to overturn that by saying a woman in the Old Testament was a pastor of real sheep, there is no basis for it based on the clear NT teaching. There was no office of pastor in the OT and no Christian church but there was were also no women priest or elders either.

sw

[ParanoidAndroid]

To weigh into this debate, I recently discussed this matter with a few people. On the one hand, I can see that women are completely capable of being pastors and leaders (Joyce Meyers and probably others show that it is possible). But does this make it biblically right? A Christian could argue that God would not bless the ministry of a woman if he did not agree with it. Such an argument holds some level of truth. But if we move beyond this argument, can we then say that if a gay Christian is pastoring a church and doing a good job, is that also an indication that God approves of their ministry?

Someone I know who I trust said that in churches that start ordaining women as pastors, within 2 years of doing so have also ordained homosexual pastors. I'm not sure how true or accurate that statement is, but I trust the person who told me and at this point have no reason to doubt his word.

However, considering that 1 Timothy is the primary passage that is used to back up the view that women should not pastor a church, it could be argued that this passage is relevant only to the people of that ancient day. Considering that women were socially less learned than men, it would be like a High School kid trying to teach the Teacher - in other words, occassionally they might hit on something that the Teacher hadn't thought of, but in general the Teacher is much more Learned than the student is. Then one could argue that in the modern world, when women have the knowledge and learning availabe, that they are thus just as capable as men to lead a church and so Timothy's warning no longer applies.

It's not an interpretation that I am personally fond of, considering that Timothy gives his reasons for not allowing women to teach, and it has nothing to do with depth of knowledge. However, it does throw a spanner into the works and just makes things that much muddier.

I don't think I've actually answered the question, but I hope I've given people something to think about with this post All the best,

~ Regards, PA

[st. Worm]

To weigh into this debate, I recently discussed this matter with a few people. On the one hand, I can see that women are completely capable of being pastors and leaders (Joyce Meyers and probably others show that it is possible). But does this make it biblically right? A Christian could argue that God would not bless the ministry of a woman if he did not agree with it. Such an argument holds some level of truth. But if we move beyond this argument, can we then say that if a gay Christian is pastoring a church and doing a good job, is that also an indication that God approves of their ministry?

Someone I know who I trust said that in churches that start ordaining women as pastors, within 2 years of doing so have also ordained homosexual pastors. I'm not sure how true or accurate that statement is, but I trust the person who told me and at this point have no reason to doubt his word.

However, considering that 1 Timothy is the primary passage that is used to back up the view that women should not pastor a church, it could be argued that this passage is relevant only to the people of that ancient day. Considering that women were socially less learned than men, it would be like a High School kid trying to teach the Teacher - in other words, occassionally they might hit on something that the Teacher hadn't thought of, but in general the Teacher is much more Learned than the student is. Then one could argue that in the modern world, when women have the knowledge and learning availabe, that they are thus just as capable as men to lead a church and so Timothy's warning no longer applies.

It's not an interpretation that I am personally fond of, considering that Timothy gives his reasons for not allowing women to teach, and it has nothing to do with depth of knowledge. However, it does throw a spanner into the works and just makes things that much muddier.

I don't think I've actually answered the question, but I hope I've given people something to think about with this post All the best,

~ Regards, PA

I don't think the issue is muddy at all. The Bible is very clear about the limited role of women in the New Testament church with regard to leadership and authority. Further using Joyce Meyers (WOF heretic and heretic supporter) as an example of a capable woman is very sad. Finally you should consider and understand that the author of First and Second Timothy was not Timothy but the Apostle Paul.

sw

[OopsMartin]

Still busy today. Hoping to find some time to make some responses. In the meantime this news....

http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/dekalb/stories/2007/07/08/0709pastor.html ://http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/me...709pastor.html ://http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/me...709pastor.html

Interestingly Mohler, president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, finds an appointment of a woman senior pastor Aug. 19 at Decatur's First Baptist Church, to be tragic.

"In a recent blog, Mohler wrote that Russsell-Pennington's experience qualifies her for a major pulpit. "Except for the fact that's she a woman," Mohler wrote."

I find his statement to be tragically an exact duplicate of so many anti-racial statements of the past. How can anyone be exceptionally qualified except for their skin and not be viewed as an inferior. How can we think someone can be exceptionally qualified and decline to benefit from their skills because of our own superior biases. How can we actually believe that contrary to God's work in the OT, now that Christ came to set free the captive and bound, we choose to bind our women in such a manner that God never did in the OT. How can we believe that God would so gift a person as exceptional in any field, skill, or spiritual gift and think that God doesn't want us to be blessed by their gifts. Why would we think that the gifted should rightly be controlled and limited by the non gifted. God told His people that it was better to be ruled by His appointed Judges (people gifted by His Spirit) rather than secular Kings that we choose. But strangely the people wanted a king just like them and the rest of the world , instead of Holy People chosen by God. In the end all the Christianity is becoming more earthly and soulish rather than preferring the workings of the Holy Spirit.

1

[firehill]

How can we actually believe that contrary to God's work in the OT, now that Christ came to set free the captive and bound, we choose to bind our women in such a manner that God never did in the OT.

Paul wouldn't bind any women contradictory to the OT. The bible does NOT contradict itself!

Why would we think that the gifted should rightly be controlled and limited by the non gifted.

This point got my attention. Yeah, the non gifted, non called controlling the gifted and called? What is that?

God told His people that it was better to be ruled by His appointed Judges (people gifted by His Spirit) rather than secular Kings that we choose. But strangely the people wanted a king just like them and the rest of the world , instead of Holy People chosen by God. In the end all the Christianity is becoming more earthly and soulish rather than preferring the workings of the Holy Spirit.

Strange that history repeats itself.

1

[st. Worm]

Still busy today. Hoping to find some time to make some responses. In the meantime this news....

http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/dekalb/stories/2007/07/08/0709pastor.html ://http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/me...709pastor.html ://http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/me...709pastor.html ://http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/me...709pastor.html ://http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/me...709pastor.html

Interestingly Mohler, president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, finds an appointment of a woman senior pastor Aug. 19 at Decatur's First Baptist Church, to be tragic.

"In a recent blog, Mohler wrote that Russsell-Pennington's experience qualifies her for a major pulpit. "Except for the fact that's she a woman," Mohler wrote."

I find his statement to be tragically an exact duplicate of so many anti-racial statements of the past. How can anyone be exceptionally qualified except for their skin and not be viewed as an inferior. How can we think someone can be exceptionally qualified and decline to benefit from their skills because of our own superior biases. How can we actually believe that contrary to God's work in the OT, now that Christ came to set free the captive and bound, we choose to bind our women in such a manner that God never did in the OT. How can we believe that God would so gift a person as exceptional in any field, skill, or spiritual gift and think that God doesn't want us to be blessed by their gifts. Why would we think that the gifted should rightly be controlled and limited by the non gifted. God told His people that it was better to be ruled by His appointed Judges (people gifted by His Spirit) rather than secular Kings that we choose. But strangely the people wanted a king just like them and the rest of the world , instead of Holy People chosen by God. In the end all the Christianity is becoming more earthly and soulish rather than preferring the workings of the Holy Spirit.

1 “The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon Me,

Because the LORD has anointed Me

To preach good tidings to the poor;

He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,

To proclaim liberty to the captives,

And the opening of the prison to those who are bound;

Mohler was being charitable in his statement. But how terrible that the Bible actually would disqualify someone. What could God have been thinking to disqualify women as pastors? Of course, we all know that some claim to know better than God and began ordaining women regardless of what God thinks.

Besides knowing what the Bible says about women pastors Mohler also resides in the same city that headquarters the Presbyterian USA denomination that began ordaining women awhile back. He knows that now they are led by women who believe in the goddess Sophia and other gnostics. He knows they will soon be ordaining homosexuals because of being led by women.

What could God have been thinking to prohibit women in authority and the pastorate?? How very unfair of him!

sw

[firehill]

But how terrible that the Bible actually would disqualify someone. What could God have been thinking to disqualify women as pastors? Of course, we all know that some claim to know better than God and began ordaining women regardless of what God thinks.

Read the bible's l-i-p-s. 'I (Paul) do not allow...' There is NO LAW ever written by a MAN. ALL Laws come from God. Paul's words were situational. REMEMBER, Paul left Timothy behind to stop those teaching false doctrine. He didn't leave him behind to stop women from teaching correct doctrine! It's right there in chp 1 of 1 Timothy. There is NO context showing the stopping of women teaching correct doctrine but there is a context of false doctrine.

Paul addressed ANYONE in 1 Timothy 3, not males.

2. If 1 Timothy 2:12 is a universal prohibition, why would Paul word God