Who is Israel?

[Fraught]

The original 'original' post had to do with whether the Church is Israel. You came into the middle of it with a good question with a very simple answer (which of course you knew it should have). Everyone who becomes a Christian becomes a follower (a disciple) of Jesus Christ no matter which, if any, religion they start out with. I'm not convinced that a persons' customs must be abandoned and believe that this should be a personal matter if they do not go against the teachings of Jesus.

Fraught -

Jedi was commenting on a post made by Vickilynn responding to a reclarification on a comment I had made. Yes, it is a sub-topic within the major topic. Would you please stick to commenting on the sub-topic as it is, a sub-topic?

When a Jew becomes a believer, does he enter into a "new" faith, or does he come into the fulfillment of his faith? (i.e. does he worship a different God, or does he come into a better understanding of his God?).

Or, one could ask, did the Jews who rejected Jesus (in the first century) reject their God? and thus needed to come back to receiving their God?

Oh, sorry, I tried to answer.

[Fraught]

John 1:1-15 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Exodus 4:22 . . . 'Thus says the LORD, "Israel is My son, My firstborn".

Matthew 3:17

and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, " This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased."

John 1:11-13 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Here in John 1, a well known passage, we have a reference to the spiritual birth into the family of God.

[Vickilynn]

Here in John 1, a well known passage, we have a reference to the spiritual birth into the family of God.

Shalom Fraught,

Yes, when one accepts Yeshua (Jesus), they are born into the family of G-d.

WHAT does that have to do with this topic? Nothing. The Believer is now part of the Church. The Church is not Israel.

[Guest shiloh357]

When 'Israel' is used in the OT does it not refer to all, jew or foreigner, slave or free? In other words when 'Israel' was used in the OT it didn't even refer to just the jews. So those who JOINED Israel even though they weren't jewish were also 'Israel'. And if those who joined Israel weren't 'Israel' along with the jews then WHAT nation were they? Did not the faith belong to both jew and forigner who made up the nation 'Israel'?

That is not accurate. For our purposes in this thread, Israel refers to the twelve tribes who were descended from Jacob, the grandson of Abraham. Those who joined Israel were no longer considered "foreigners" or as they were circumcised and adopted the faith of the Israelite in the nation in the one true God of Israel.

More to the point, Israel was a sanctified and redeemed nation. It was set apart from all other peoples in the earth by God Himself. Those who were not descended from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, but joined themselves to Israel and adopted the true faith in the true God of Israel were considered part of that redeemed community as if they had been delevered from Exodus as well. The children of Israel were instructed in the Torah to treat them as if they were native born. They were not to make a distinction between a native born Israelite and one who had joined the Israelite nation and had adopted the Israelite faith.

Israel is used in other ways in the OT but it is NEVER used in either the OT or the NT to refer to Gentiles.

[firehill]

When 'Israel' is used in the OT does it not refer to all, jew or foreigner, slave or free? In other words when 'Israel' was used in the OT it didn't even refer to just the jews. So those who JOINED Israel even though they weren't jewish were also 'Israel'. And if those who joined Israel weren't 'Israel' along with the jews then WHAT nation were they? Did not the faith belong to both jew and forigner who made up the nation 'Israel'?

That is not accurate. For our purposes in this thread, Israel refers to the twelve tribes who were descended from Jacob, the grandson of Abraham. Those who joined Israel were no longer considered "foreigners" or as they were circumcised and adopted the faith of the Israelite in the nation in the one true God of Israel.

More to the point, Israel was a sanctified and redeemed nation. It was set apart from all other peoples in the earth by God Himself. Those who were not descended from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, but joined themselves to Israel and adopted the true faith in the true God of Israel were considered part of that redeemed community as if they had been delevered from Exodus as well. The children of Israel were instructed in the Torah to treat them as if they were native born. They were not to make a distinction between a native born Israelite and one who had joined the Israelite nation and had adopted the Israelite faith.

Israel is used in other ways in the OT but it is NEVER used in either the OT or the NT to refer to Gentiles.

My post wasn't as detailed but it was correct. So it seems to me then that we are in agreement over who constituted Israel in the OT which included the gentile who joined Israel? What I said above is in agreement with your response. I don't see any contradiction between our posts here. Your's may have been more accurate and detailed but the two do not contradict. A foreigner then who joined the the faith was considered Israel ALONG with the jew. In other words it wasn't just the jewish people who constituted Israel as a nation. I didn't say above that Israel refered to JUST gentiles. Israel in the OT then refered to ALL who constituted the nation, wether jew or not. Do we agree?

[Guest shiloh357]

My post wasn't as detailed but it was correct. So it seems to me then that we are in agreement over who constituted Israel in the OT which included the gentile who joined Israel? What I said above is in agreement with your response. I don't see any contradiction between our posts here. Your's may have been more accurate and detailed but the two do not contradict. A foreigner then who joined the the faith was considered Israel ALONG with the jew. In other words it wasn't just the jewish people who constituted Israel as a nation. I didn't say above that Israel refered to JUST gentiles. Israel in the OT then refered to ALL who constituted the nation, wether jew or not. Do we agree?

As I said, I have no problem with Gentile believers being included with Jews as part of Israel. I believe that Paul's olive tree metaphor deliniates that Jewish and Genitle belivers are equal members of Israel. My only problem with your post was simply that one was not considered a "foreigner" after joining Israel and it appeared that you claimed foreingers were included as Israel, and that is contradictory. One cannot be a foreigner and an Israelite.

[firehill]

My post wasn't as detailed but it was correct. So it seems to me then that we are in agreement over who constituted Israel in the OT which included the gentile who joined Israel? What I said above is in agreement with your response. I don't see any contradiction between our posts here. Your's may have been more accurate and detailed but the two do not contradict. A foreigner then who joined the the faith was considered Israel ALONG with the jew. In other words it wasn't just the jewish people who constituted Israel as a nation. I didn't say above that Israel refered to JUST gentiles. Israel in the OT then refered to ALL who constituted the nation, wether jew or not. Do we agree?

As I said, I have no problem with Gentile believers being included with Jews as part of Israel. That has not been the issue I am in contention with. My only problem with your post was simply that one was not considered a "foreigner" after joining Israel and it appeared that you claimed foreingers were included as Israel, and that is contradictory. One cannot be a foreigner and an Israelite.

I agree with your post above. I just wasn't specific enough on the point that once a foreigner joined the faith that they were no longer considered a foreigner. At that point they are an Israelite.

NOW my question is once a gentile comes to Christ are they not considered 'Israel' today AS WELL (just as in the OT when a foreigner joined the faith) ALONG with those of the faith?

[Guest shiloh357]

I agree with your post above. I just wasn't specific enough on the point that once a foreigner joined the faith that they were no longer considered a foreigner. At that point they are an Israelite.

My point was that the primary definition of Israel (for our purposes in this thread) applies to the physical descendents of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.

NOW my question is once a gentile comes to Christ are they not considered 'Israel' today AS WELL (just as in the OT when a foreigner joined the faith) ALONG with those of the faith?

They are grafted into Israel according to Paul's olive tree metaphor. They do not constitute a "spritual Israel." They are simply part of Israel.

What I am in contention with is the mythological term "spiritual Israel" which is often used in contradistinction with biblical Israel. Most often, those who see the church as "spiritual Israel" mean that the church is THE Israel of the NT. They view the Church as having superceded biblical Israel and supplanted it as God's nation. Biblical Israel is seen as permanently judged by God and supplanted by the Church, never to be heard from again.

Our current scenario where we have an entity called "The Church" a predominately Gentile organization, separate from Israel, is a post biblical concept and completely out of step with Paul's olive tree metaphor.

[Jedi4Yahweh]

I was just clarifying her statement because the way it reads sounds like Gods plan is the save jews...period. Well, what about the rest of the world? I know she does not believe that or at least I hope she does not believe that way.

Do you have a problem with my clarification or are you just out on a war path.

It was not worded at all like a "clarification" particularly when you told her to look at the big picture. That did not come off as "clarification." It came off as you assuming she meant that it was all about the Jews and you were to straighten her out. Furthermore, if anyone was to clarify her words it would be her not you. That is part of your problem. You read into what other people are saying and assume things that are not there. So Yeah, I have a real problem with your attempt "clarify" her words. It is both arrogant and presumptuous.

Yeah whatever, now get back on subject.

[firehill]

They do not constitute a "spritual Israel."

ALL in the faith then constitute LITERAL Israel? AS in, just like the gentile who accepted the faith in the OT was no longer considered a gentile but rather an Israelite?

They are simply part of Israel.

Here's where I see a breakdown occure. First you and I agree that ALL are Israel in the OT (jew and gentile that accepted their faith). Would you now say then that those gentiles who were NO LONGER gentiles once they accepted the faith in the OT because at that point they are considered Israelites were ONLY PART of Israel? Is that how they were to be considered?

What I am in contention with is the mythological term "spiritual Israel" which is often used in contradistinction with biblical Israel.Most often, those who see the church as "spiritual Israel" mean that the church is THE Israel of the NT.They view the Church as having superceded biblical Israel and supplanted it as God's nation. Biblical Israel is seen as permanently judged by God and supplanted by the Church, never to be heard from again.

I've a question concerning 'biblical Israel'. Did not biblical Israel in the OT consitute even those gentiles who became Israelites? Is the biblical Israel of the OT the same as the biblical Israel of the NT?

Our current scenario where we have an entity called "The Church" a predominately Gentile organization, separate from Israel, is a post biblical concept and completely out of step with Paul's olive tree metaphor.

Paul didn't mean for 'the church' to be a predominately gentile organization, yes?

By 'entity' you mean the institutionazied church? If that is what you mean then I'm gonna just say that the IC is not the church of Christ.