nebula Posted July 30, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted July 30, 2007 As A Grafted-In Child Of God I Share The Inheritance Of The Sons Of Levi. I Have No Portion In The Land Of Israel. The LORD Is My Only Inheritance. Boo-Hoo Oh So Not I love it! That's a great way to put it, Joe! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 I don't believe that Israel as a nation is replaced but I do believe the Church is Spiritual Israel and that one day that the nation of Israel will join the Church as told by scripture. The belief that the Church is spiritual Israel is the crux of Replacement Theology. I don't believe God has forgotten Israel the nation and its people but has promised to return them to salvation in the last days. I agree with that. I don't agree with this separation theology that God has two bodies: One the nation of Israel and one the Church. God sees all born again people both Jew and Gentile as the Church. Well there are not two bodies. There is Israel. Gentiles are grafted into Israel. The Jews are not grafted into the Church. Part of the problem with our approach is that we live with an institution called "The Church" that was created when the Gentiles Christian leaders under the leadership of Constantine in the 4th century decided to make the break with the Jews both believers and nonbelievers alike. Until that time, Jews were allowed to live as Jews and their culture was an expression of their faith in Christ. Constantine changed that. "The Church" then became an institution that, separate from the Jews, declared itself (with no authority from Scripture) as the "true Israel." Until the 4th Century, Gentile believers fellowshipped with Jewish believers and the New Testament faith had a much more hebraic flavor than it does today. Messiah was the fulfillment of the Jewish prophets and the Jewish Scriptures. He is the King of the Jews. Gentile believers were joining a Jewish faith. Everything about the original New Testament faith was Hebraic. God has only one body and one path to salvation which is through faith in Christ. God is not going to revive old testament laws and practises because they were only shadows of the new, they do not provide salvation by faith. Physical Israel was a shadow of the Church to come.Israel is never used as a type or shadow of the Church. There is no typology used anywhere in Scripture, and the New Testament makes no such claim. The institution we call "The Church" is a post biblical concept and is not what Jesus was referring to when He said: "Upon this rock I will build my church (Heb. Kehilati, 'my congregation')..." Part of the confusion with the olive tree metaphor is that is a metaphor depicting a relationship pre-Constantine before there was an instution that was antagonistic to the Jews and set itself against them. It is impossible for the Gentiles to be grafted into Israel if God's real plan is to make the Gentiles into a different "Israel." The tree does not belong to any particular race. In Paul's metaphor, the olive tree is Israel from which some natura (Jewish branches) were broken off. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? (Romans 11:24) According to Paul the natural olive is the Jews' own olive tree. So yes, it does belong to them and you are grafted into their tree, like it or not. One question, do you believe Jews are saved without believing in Christ? Is there another way to salvation outside of Christ? The answer is no. Jews are saved the same as everyone else. But, no one here is talking about how Jews are saved. That is not the issue. The issue is the prophetic role of Israel in the last days. Those who hold to the Church is "spiritual Israel" or "the true Israel," typically hold to the view that the Jews have no part or role in God's end time plans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi4Yahweh Posted July 31, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,955 Content Per Day: 0.26 Reputation: 636 Days Won: 1 Joined: 11/12/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted July 31, 2007 As A Grafted-In Child Of God I Share The Inheritance Of The Sons Of Levi. I Have No Portion In The Land Of Israel. The LORD Is My Only Inheritance. Boo-Hoo Oh So Not I love it! That's a great way to put it, Joe! There several different views on the issue... 1) Some believe that Israel has been replaced by the Church and that God has no more dealings with the nation of Israel. -- Replacement Theology 2) There are some that Believe that God has two different plans of salvation for Jews and Gentiles. They believe Jews will be saved by Old Testament Covenant if they are faithful too it and Gentiles will be saved by faith in Christ or somewhat a mixture of both. The also see Jewish believers and Gentile believers are unequal in the eyes of God. They believe that Jews and Gentiles are separate, as under the old covenant, and that the Church is not for Jews but Gentiles only. Seperation Doctrine. -- Separation Theology 3) Then there are some that believe that salvation is by faith in Christ and that God has torn down the wall of separation between Jew and Gentile and that all believers both Jew and Gentile are both co-equal and belong to one body called the Church. They also believe that God still has plans to redeem the nation of Israel from its unbelief. They believe that the nation of Israel plays a vital role in the last days and that God has not forgot his promise to them. They believe that the New Covenant is Gods ultimate plan for mankind. --Co-equal Theology I belong to the later.....and for the most part, most people agree with the later. Can you let me know where you fall so I can know were your coming from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickilynn Posted July 31, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 138 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,997 Content Per Day: 0.64 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/13/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted July 31, 2007 The New Testament does not say that Gentile beleivers receive every blessing pronounced upon Israel/the Jewish people. You are not a joint heir with the Jews. You are a joint heir with Christ. Which is the better hier (ship)? I'll take Christ above some land, which is just a type of Christ anyway. Shalom, Sorry Ruck, Like it or not, when a Gentile accepts Jesus as L-rd and Savior they are grafted into the olive tree, Israel. There is no *better* heirship, it is ALL in G-d's plan. No, the land is not a type of Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fraught Posted July 31, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 105 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,741 Content Per Day: 0.28 Reputation: 28 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/23/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/30/1959 Author Share Posted July 31, 2007 I don't believe that Israel as a nation is replaced but I do believe the Church is Spiritual Israel and that one day that the nation of Israel will join the Church as told by scripture. The belief that the Church is spiritual Israel is the crux of Replacement Theology. I don't believe God has forgotten Israel the nation and its people but has promised to return them to salvation in the last days. I agree with that. I don't agree with this separation theology that God has two bodies: One the nation of Israel and one the Church. God sees all born again people both Jew and Gentile as the Church. Well there are not two bodies. There is Israel. Gentiles are grafted into Israel. The Jews are not grafted into the Church. Part of the problem with our approach is that we live with an institution called "The Church" that was created when the Gentiles Christian leaders under the leadership of Constantine in the 4th century decided to make the break with the Jews both believers and nonbelievers alike. Until that time, Jews were allowed to live as Jews and their culture was an expression of their faith in Christ. Constantine changed that. "The Church" then became an institution that, separate from the Jews, declared itself (with no authority from Scripture) as the "true Israel." Until the 4th Century, Gentile believers fellowshipped with Jewish believers and the New Testament faith had a much more hebraic flavor than it does today. The Messiah belonged to the Jewish people first. He was the fulfillment of the Jewish prophets and the Jewish Scriptures. He is the King of the Jews. Gentile believers were joining a Jewish faith. Everything about the original New Testament faith was Hebraic. God has only one body and one path to salvation which is through faith in Christ. God is not going to revive old testament laws and practises because they were only shadows of the new, they do not provide salvation by faith. Physical Israel was a shadow of the Church to come.Israel is never used as a type or shadow of the Church. There is no typology used anywhere in Scripture, and the New Testament makes no such claim. The institution we call "The Church" is a post biblical concept and is not what Jesus was referring to when He said: "Upon this rock I will build my church (Heb. Kehilati, 'my congregation')..." Part of the confusion with the olive tree metaphor is that is a metaphor depicting a relationship pre-Constantine before there was an instution that was antagonistic to the Jews and set itself against them. It is impossible for the Gentiles to be grafted into Israel if God's real plan is to make the Gentiles into a different "Israel." The tree does not belong to any particular race. In Paul's metaphor, the olive tree is Israel from which some natura (Jewish branches) were broken off. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? (Romans 11:24) According to Paul the natural olive is the Jews' own olive tree. So yes, it does belong to them and you are grafted into their tree, like it or not. One question, do you believe Jews are saved without believing in Christ? Is there another way to salvation outside of Christ? The answer is no. Jews are saved the same as everyone else. But, no one here is talking about how Jews are saved. That is not the issue. The issue is the prophetic role of Israel in the last days. Those who hold to the Church is "spiritual Israel" or "the true Israel," typically hold to the view that the Jews have no part or role in God's end time plans. I have learned much in this thread and I appreciate all the replies. Many arguments were well thought out - now i must take issue however with your quote "we live with an institution called "The Church" that was. . ." No one is speaking of a worldly institution. I believe we would all agree that the church is THE BODY OF CHRIST AND NOTHING BUT THE BODY OF CHRIST. Now Christ has one body with many members and some are Jew and some are Gentile because we are fellow heirs with Jesus Christ and the reason we are heirs is because we are in his family!!! Now who was his original family? Descendants of Abraham but the descendants of Abraham are not joint heirs with Jesus Christ just because of their ancestry. It is clear that Jesus could raise up descendants for the inheritance from STONES if he couldn't find anybody else but praise his name he found us! And praise his mercy he can graft an unbeliever back in, be they Jew, Gentile, Hindu, Buddhist, Scientologist or Hari Krishna when they believe that Yeshua Messiah is both God and Human in one form he was born of God of a WOMAN (can you believe it) and we know that we don't have to accept the power of death and entropy PRAISE HIS HOLY AUTHORITY he has overcome there is a MAN in heaven and HE LIVES!!!! Praise God he sustains us all be we Jew, Gentile, Hindu Buddhist, Scientologist, Atheist, Evolutionist for in HIM we live and move and have our being thank HIM WE DON'T FLY APART IN PIECES OR GO SAILING OFF THE PLANET - We all may die, but WHY! CHRIST JESUS may live in us and WE ALL share in his inheritance which is everlasting life! AMEN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted July 31, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted July 31, 2007 Which is the better hier (ship)? I'll take Christ above some land, which is just a type of Christ anyway. Christ, of course. But while on this Earth, don't you have ties to where you live, where you grew up, where your ancestors came from . . . something? Don't you want your children and grandchildren to be settled somewhere special? The land of Israel is the heritage of the Jews. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted July 31, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted July 31, 2007 now i must take issue however with your quote "we live with an institution called "The Church" that was. . ." No one is speaking of a worldly institution. I believe we would all agree that the church is THE BODY OF CHRIST AND NOTHING BUT THE BODY OF CHRIST. Now Christ has one body with many members and some are Jew and some are Gentile because we are fellow heirs with Jesus Christ and the reason we are heirs is because we are in his family!!! Now who was his original family? Descendants of Abraham but the descendants of Abraham are not joint heirs with Jesus Christ just because of their ancestry. It is clear that Jesus could raise up descendants for the inheritance from STONES if he couldn't find anybody else but praise his name he found us! And praise his mercy he can graft an unbeliever back in, be they Jew, Gentile, Hindu, Buddhist, Scientologist or Hari Krishna when they believe that Yeshua Hey - what Shiloh was referring to was how things changed around the time of Constantine. Going into the details could hijack this thread into a completely separate debate that we don't want to get into. The bottom line is that "the Church" lost track of our Hebraic roots, and Christians began integrating more and more of their own culture into their faith. This is why we celebrate Christmas and Easter rather than Passover and the Feast of Tabernacles and the like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted July 31, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted July 31, 2007 There several different views on the issue... 1) Some believe that Israel has been replaced by the Church and that God has no more dealings with the nation of Israel. -- Replacement Theology 2) There are some that Believe that God has two different plans of salvation for Jews and Gentiles. They believe Jews will be saved by Old Testament Covenant if they are faithful too it and Gentiles will be saved by faith in Christ or somewhat a mixture of both. The also see Jewish believers and Gentile believers are unequal in the eyes of God. They believe that Jews and Gentiles are separate, as under the old covenant, and that the Church is not for Jews but Gentiles only. Seperation Doctrine. -- Separation Theology 3) Then there are some that believe that salvation is by faith in Christ and that God has torn down the wall of separation between Jew and Gentile and that all believers both Jew and Gentile are both co-equal and belong to one body called the Church. They also believe that God still has plans to redeem the nation of Israel from its unbelief. They believe that the nation of Israel plays a vital role in the last days and that God has not forgot his promise to them. They believe that the New Covenant is Gods ultimate plan for mankind. --Co-equal Theology I belong to the later.....and for the most part, most people agree with the later. Can you let me know where you fall so I can know were your coming from. Sort-of number 3. Where I have reservations with "Co-equal" is when people say Jews who have come to faith in Messiah are no longer Jews and should forsake their culture and their way of worshiping God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 now i must take issue however with your quote "we live with an institution called "The Church" that was. . ." No one is speaking of a worldly institution. I believe we would all agree that the church is THE BODY OF CHRIST AND NOTHING BUT THE BODY OF CHRIST. Now Christ has one body with many members and some are Jew and some are Gentile because we are fellow heirs with Jesus Christ and the reason we are heirs is because we are in his family!!! Now who was his original family? Descendants of Abraham but the descendants of Abraham are not joint heirs with Jesus Christ just because of their ancestry. It is clear that Jesus could raise up descendants for the inheritance from STONES if he couldn't find anybody else but praise his name he found us! And praise his mercy he can graft an unbeliever back in, be they Jew, Gentile, Hindu, Buddhist, Scientologist or Hari Krishna when they believe that Yeshua Hey - what Shiloh was referring to was how things changed around the time of Constantine. Going into the details could hijack this thread into a completely separate debate that we don't want to get into. The bottom line is that "the Church" lost track of our Hebraic roots, and Christians began integrating more and more of their own culture into their faith. This is why we celebrate Christmas and Easter rather than Passover and the Feast of Tabernacles and the like. Yeah, what she said!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi4Yahweh Posted July 31, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,955 Content Per Day: 0.26 Reputation: 636 Days Won: 1 Joined: 11/12/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted July 31, 2007 Hey - what Shiloh was referring to was how things changed around the time of Constantine. Going into the details could hijack this thread into a completely separate debate that we don't want to get into. The bottom line is that "the Church" lost track of our Hebraic roots, and Christians began integrating more and more of their own culture into their faith. This is why we celebrate Christmas and Easter rather than Passover and the Feast of Tabernacles and the like. I agree a lot of worldly stuff has creep ed into a lot of Church's such as easter and christmas. Which I don't celebrate any of them. I like the idea of celebrating Passover and the Feast of Tabernacles and not only are they important to Jews but Gentile believers alike. I used to go to a Messianic church that celebrated these things...none of the less they saw themselves as Christians and did not distinguish between Gentile and Jew. We were all brothers an sisters in Christ worshiping God. The only reason I stopped going was because I moved because I am in the military. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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