Guest Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 Sorry Joe. Fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 The point is if Abraham can have Gentiles as his Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 In Romans 9:6 Paul is making a distinction between ethnic Jews who are part of the remnant with those who are not part of the remnant. Those who are part of the remnant, are part of the Israel within Israel, as opposed to those who are merely descended from Jacob. What Paul is saying in Roman 9:6 is that there is an Israel within ethnic Israel. Paul doesnot mean to be understood that believing Genitles are now Israel. Rather he is saying in Romans 9:6 that the promises made to Jacob (Israel) will be realized in their complete fulfillment even if some of his natural descendants were disqualified from participating in them. What he states is that not all the physical descendants of the man, Jacob, are necessarily inheritors of the Divine promises merely on the grounds that they are ethnic Jews. The "true Israelite" or "spiritual Jew" (if such terms could ever be considered legitimate) is one is ethically Jewish and has received Christ as Savior and Lord. Never, in the New Testament, is the term Jew or "Israel" ever applied to Gentiles spritually or otherwise. This augment is pointless if you believe that Jesus has torn down the wall of separation between Jew and Gentile. The point I am making is there is no more Jew or Gentile in the eyes of God so no need to call each other Jews or Gentiles. We are all Christians...period. We server the same God so no need to get hung up on titles. The only point I was making is that we are all equal in the eyes of God if you believe in Jesus Christ. The true Gentiles are those that do not believe and The true Israelites are those that believe, so don't get hung up on titles because this only means that believing Jews and Gentiles are now brothers and sisters in the Christ. We are now one body in Christ. If you have a problem with that then take it up with God...because this was his plan from the beginning. The problem here is that you don't seem to understand what Paul was saying about the "middle wall of partition." It was a reference to the wall erected in the Temple during the 2nd Temple period that kept the Gentiles in farthest out precincts of the Temple compound thus limiting their access to the worship of God. Paul points out that in Christ the wall has been removed and now Gentiles and Jews have equal access to God. Which leads to the issue about there being no Jew or Gentile in Christ in Gal. 3:28. All that Paul is saying in that verse is that Ethnic pedigree, gender and social status afford no advantage or disadvantage where access to God and his grace are concerned. Nowhere does the Bible erase ethnic distinctives. Paul did not say in Christ, Jews cease being Jews. The same verse that says there is no Jew or Greek, also says there is no male or female. Are you seriously going to argue that gender distinctions have also been erased? No one would argue that we cease being male and female when we get saved. The inability to be internally consistent in applying that verse demonstrates the fallaciousness of interpreting Paul to mean that ethnic distinctives have been erased in Christ. It is tragically amusing how that people like you will sit here and demand that in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile and then demand that in Christ you are "spiritual Israelites" or "true Jews." It can't be argued both ways. For my part, I am not saying that there is any inequality between Jews or Gentiles in the body. Equality is not the issue, at least not in this thread. The issue is that all believers Messiah Jesus are definitely part of Israel, according Romans 11, but do not replace biblical Israel as the "true" or "spiritual" Israel. That is all I am saying. Finally, it should be pointed out that Romans 9:6 occurs in a particular context. Romans 1-8 finishes up with Paul explaining how Gentile salvation was made possible. But Romans 9-11 is Paul's main point. It is the reason why Paul wrote the book of Romans in the first place. After Paul establishes and affirms Gentile inclusion in the plan of redemption, Paul begins to appeal to the Genitles on behalf of the Jewish people. His appeal on their behalf begins chapter 9 and finishes in chapter 11. It has nothing to do with middle wall of partition. Paul, in Romans 9-11, makes the point that the Gentiles, in light of everything he has established in chapter 1-8 owe it to the Jewish people to bring the gospel back to them, to be a light the Jewish people. Paul basically wrote the book of Romans as an appeal to the Gentiles that they would be blessing to Israel. Instead, the Gentiles have taken Paul's appeal and twisted into a warped theology that actually attempts to make the church into "Israel." The only one hung up on titles is you. You are the one demanding to be called "Israel." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fraught Posted August 2, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 105 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,741 Content Per Day: 0.28 Reputation: 28 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/23/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/30/1959 Author Share Posted August 2, 2007 Matthew 5:34-36 34 But I say, do not make any vows! Do not say, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted August 2, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted August 2, 2007 Jew and Gentiles believers are both equal in Christ and belong to one body in Christ. My observation is that there is a difference in how this concept is perceived. One side will say non-believing Jews who believe in Jesus are joined into our faith. The other side will say non-believing Jews who believe in Jesus have come into the fullness of their own faith. See the difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickilynn Posted August 2, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 138 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,997 Content Per Day: 0.63 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/13/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted August 2, 2007 Jew and Gentiles believers are both equal in Christ and belong to one body in Christ. My observation is that there is a difference in how this concept is perceived. One side will say non-believing Jews who believe in Jesus are joined into our faith. The other side will say non-believing Jews who believe in Jesus have come into the fullness of their own faith. See the difference? Shalom Nebula, Huh?? How can a "non-Believing Jew" believe in Jesus? They they would be a BELIEVING Jew. See the difference? And for the rest of the argument, it's not what We say, but what the Scriptures says. The NATURAL branches of the Olive Tree are ethnic Israel. Gentiles are grafted INTO that tree, with the root being Jesus. Jews who believe in Jesus are not grafted into the Gentile faith. There is no Gentile faith. That's simply not Scriptural. The "faith" is in the Messiah Jesus and His salvation! Jesus came to save the Jew first, then the Gentile. That was G-d's plan from the beginning. Please read it for yourself: Romans 1: 16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, "The righteous shall live by faith." Matthew 10: 5 These twelve Jesus sent out, instructing them, "Go nowhere among the Gentiles and enter no town of the Samaritans, 6 but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7And proclaim as you go, saying,(F) 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.' Matthew 15: 24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 THE FAITH OF WHO'S FATHER? "Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God." Exodus 3:6 Jew and Gentiles believers are both equal in Christ and belong to one body in Christ. My observation is that there is a difference in how this concept is perceived. One side will say non-believing Jews who believe in Jesus are joined into our faith. The other side will say non-believing Jews who believe in Jesus have come into the fullness of their own faith. See the difference? And To Think I Use To Know It All! The Other Side Will Say Jews Who Believe In Jesus Have Come Into The Fullness Of Their Fathers' Faith. This Is A Wonderful Education For An Old Man Who Just Believes The Words Of The Bible. Thank You All! And To Think God Sent A "Girl" To Teach Me A Thing Or Two..... Oops! Another Thread. Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!Psalms 133:1 Be Blessed Beloved Of The Root Of Jesse The LORD bless thee, and keep thee: The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee: The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace. And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27 Love, Your Brother Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted August 2, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted August 2, 2007 How can a "non-Believing Jew" believe in Jesus? They they would be a BELIEVING Jew. See the difference? Did I write "non-believing"? Sorry - my head is a bit foggy with a cold right now. What I meant was a Jew who didn't believe - when they actually come to belief - Then, do they join into our faith? Or do they come into the fullness of their faith? (I believe they come into the fullness of their faith. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jedi4Yahweh Posted August 2, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,955 Content Per Day: 0.26 Reputation: 636 Days Won: 1 Joined: 11/12/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted August 2, 2007 How can a "non-Believing Jew" believe in Jesus? They they would be a BELIEVING Jew. See the difference? Did I write "non-believing"? Sorry - my head is a bit foggy with a cold right now. What I meant was a Jew who didn't believe - when they actually come to belief - Then, do they join into our faith? Or do they come into the fullness of their faith? (I believe they come into the fullness of their faith. ) How can it be Israels faith if they have no faith...speaking on the majority that do not believe. So the argument is over who owns God. That is a silly argument. No one has ownership on God. God is the God of Jews and Gentiles. Yes, God chose Israel first as a people but that does not give them ownership of God. So people need to stop saying its thier religion or my religion. God is the sole owner and he choses who and who does not belong both to Jews and Gentiles. Israel is blessed because God used them to bring about the oracles of God but God could have chosen any race of people to do this. So dont get all puffed up about history because history also reveals a lot of shame and misfortune on their behalf. Yes, spiritual things are hard to understand by carnal minds. Those with carnal minds will misunderstand things but that goes for everything about God. Look, Israel was expecting a world ruling Messiah that would come and liberate them from the romans and setup a world kingdom. It was because they misunderstood scriptures and saw things only carnally and not spiritually. Jesus came to establish a spiritual kingdom. Jesus himself said that his kingdom is not of this world, but spiritual. If Israel would have saw things spiritually they would understood his gospal and they would have not rejected him. The bible says that their eyes are blind and can not see, they have ears but can not hear. I am not going to worry about misunderstandings because people that are blind will remain blind until God has mercy on them to reveal the truth of the matter. This discussion is a matter of seeings thing spiritually are carnally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted August 2, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted August 2, 2007 So the argument is over who owns God. I completely fail to see how you got that interpretation out of my statment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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