Yahweh is salvation Posted August 26, 2007 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 124 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/19/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted August 26, 2007 I agree, and if I may ad somethin Mutzrein. In your Scriptures doesn't God say, "You are gods"? You can't argue with the Scripyures, and God spoke to those people and called them gods. So why do you accuse me of a terrible sin for saying that I am the Son of God (God). If God called Jesus,"God" like he called the others, then why is he the only one who is God, MrLuke? Yes, you are referring to the following Psalm partially quoted by Jesus: A Psalm of Asaph. God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment: "How long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked? Selah Give justice to the weak and the fatherless; maintain the right of the afflicted and the destitute. Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked." They have neither knowledge nor understanding, they walk about in darkness; all the foundations of the earth are shaken. I said, "You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you; nevertheless, like men you shall die, and fall like any prince." Arise, O God, judge the earth; for you shall inherit all the nations! (Psalms 82:1-8) What you need to understand is that this verse applies to magistrates. The word "elohim" is used three different ways in Hebrew and the context determines the usage. It is used to refer to God, to angels and to human magistrates/governors or legislators. God is expressing anger that their corrupt use of their authority. He is not calling men "gods" in the absolute sense. Jesus was applying this passage to the leaders/magitrates/ of 1st Century Israel. The clear implication in the passage, and there are othere places in the gospels as well, where it is implied that they knew that Jesus was the Messiah, which is what made their trechory that much worse. Their rejection of Jesusby His enemies may not have been based upon unbelief per se, but because they were actually opposed to the coming of Messiah and the upset His appearing would bring their puppet positions given to Him by Rome. Some of Israel's leaders were so corrupt, the last thing they wanted was a Messiah. Often, we seem to put the Jews of 1st century into this monolithic mold as if they ALL looked for the Messiah, but not all of them did. If it was not clear who Jesus was, there would be no reason to work so hard at discrediting Him. They could not refute Him, so all that was left was to kill Him. So, since they probably knew who Jesus was and rejected Him anyway, their charge of blasphemy was unfounded, particularly since there was nothing in Jesus' works or ministry that indicated that blasphemy had taken place. I think that when Jesus calls himself,"God", that he doesn't mean"God" in absolute sense either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted August 26, 2007 Share Posted August 26, 2007 I think that when Jesus calls himself,"God", that he doesn't mean"God" in absolute sense either. Well the problem is that it is not up to you decide if Jesus meant it in the absolute sense. The Bible uses it in the absolute sense every time and the context demands that He be understood that way EACH time, and you are impotent to demonstrate otherwise. Jesus was simply using "gods" to refer to authority of magistrates. You still have not explained why if Jesus is not God, did He receive worship after declaring that only God is to be worshipped and why he forgave sins in His own name when only God is able to forgive sins? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yahweh is salvation Posted August 26, 2007 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 124 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/19/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted August 26, 2007 I think that when Jesus calls himself,"God", that he doesn't mean"God" in absolute sense either. Well the problem is that it is not up to you decide if Jesus meant it in the absolute sense. The Bible uses it in the absolute sense every time and the context demands that He be understood that way EACH time, and you are impotent to demonstrate otherwise. Jesus was simply using "gods" to refer to authority of magistrates. You still have not explained why if Jesus is not God, did He receive worship after declaring that only God is to be worshipped and why he forgave sins in His own name when only God is able to forgive sins? God gave us to Jesus, that's why Jesus received worship. Same reason why he could forgive our sins. And it is up to us to decide, what he meant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted August 26, 2007 Share Posted August 26, 2007 I think that when Jesus calls himself,"God", that he doesn't mean"God" in absolute sense either. Well the problem is that it is not up to you decide if Jesus meant it in the absolute sense. The Bible uses it in the absolute sense every time and the context demands that He be understood that way EACH time, and you are impotent to demonstrate otherwise. Jesus was simply using "gods" to refer to authority of magistrates. You still have not explained why if Jesus is not God, did He receive worship after declaring that only God is to be worshipped and why he forgave sins in His own name when only God is able to forgive sins? God gave us to Jesus, that's why Jesus received worship. Same reason why he could forgive our sins. And it is up to us to decide, what he meant. You did not answer the question: If Jesus is not God, why did Jesus receive worship. How could Jesus receive worship when only God can be worship. You seem to forget that Jesus said that ONLY God was to be worshipped and He stated that such was written in the Scriptures. Now if only God is supposed to be worshipped according to Jesus, why did Jesus go back on His previous remark? Why would Jesus contradict Himself? How does the fact that God sent Jesus mean that He could forgive sins? How exactly does that work, and please provide a scriptural answer for once. And it is up to us to decide, what he meant. No, it is not up to us to decide what He meant. His words are not at the mercy of your whims. It is up to us to believe what is written and when God the Father refers to Jesus His Son as God, we are to believe Him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurnForChrist Posted August 27, 2007 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 81 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/15/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/21/1990 Share Posted August 27, 2007 (edited) I think that when Jesus calls himself,"God", that he doesn't mean"God" in absolute sense either. Well the problem is that it is not up to you decide if Jesus meant it in the absolute sense. The Bible uses it in the absolute sense every time and the context demands that He be understood that way EACH time, and you are impotent to demonstrate otherwise. Jesus was simply using "gods" to refer to authority of magistrates. You still have not explained why if Jesus is not God, did He receive worship after declaring that only God is to be worshipped and why he forgave sins in His own name when only God is able to forgive sins? God gave us to Jesus, that's why Jesus received worship. Same reason why he could forgive our sins. And it is up to us to decide, what he meant. This statement contradicts scripture. Isaiah 48:11 "For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it;For how should My name be profaned? And I will not give My glory to another." The only logical reasoning for why Jesus recieved worship, and praise from men was because, as the bible says, he IS GOD. It is incontravertable to say otherwise. Read John 1:1, which some people seem to ignore, or 1 John 5:7, 1 John 5:20, 1 Timothy 3:16, Romans 9:5, John 8:58-59, John 20:28 and so much more. Oh and to clarify Colossians 1:15 "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation." This does NOT mean that he was the first of GODs creation, that is a heresy, and doctrine of what Jehovah Witnesses teach. This simply implies that he is the only begotten of the father, and his supremacy in all things. Grace to all who read, Burn Edited August 27, 2007 by BurnForChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrLuke Posted August 27, 2007 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 58 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 628 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/07/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/09/1985 Share Posted August 27, 2007 I think that when Jesus calls himself,"God", that he doesn't mean"God" in absolute sense either. Well the problem is that it is not up to you decide if Jesus meant it in the absolute sense. The Bible uses it in the absolute sense every time and the context demands that He be understood that way EACH time, and you are impotent to demonstrate otherwise. Jesus was simply using "gods" to refer to authority of magistrates. You still have not explained why if Jesus is not God, did He receive worship after declaring that only God is to be worshipped and why he forgave sins in His own name when only God is able to forgive sins? God gave us to Jesus, that's why Jesus received worship. Same reason why he could forgive our sins. And it is up to us to decide, what he meant. This statement contradicts scripture. Isaiah 48:11 "For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it;For how should My name be profaned? And I will not give My glory to another." The only logical reasoning for why Jesus recieved worship, and praise from men was because, as the bible says, he IS GOD. It is incontravertable to say otherwise. Read John 1:1, which some people seem to ignore, or 1 John 5:7, 1 John 5:20, 1 Timothy 3:16, Romans 9:5, John 8:58-59, John 20:28 and so much more. Oh and to clarify Colossians 1:15 "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation." This does NOT mean that he was the first of GODs creation, that is a heresy, and doctrine of what Jehovah Witnesses teach. This simply implies that he is the only begotten of the father, and his supremacy in all things. Grace to all who read, Burn Amen and amen indeed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutzrein Posted August 28, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 305 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/22/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/12/1950 Share Posted August 28, 2007 Wayne B. Continuing as I said I would - in reference to John 1. In our human Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebmilc Posted August 28, 2007 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 204 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/29/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/07/1949 Share Posted August 28, 2007 Hi Mutzrein. As a matter of interest I have pasted a snip from a sermon preached by Ephrem the Syrian around the 4th century AD. It gives you some idea of what the early church believed and taught about the Deity of Christ. 14. And the Father cried out, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneB Posted August 28, 2007 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 232 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 7,261 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 80 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/19/1959 Share Posted August 28, 2007 Now I am not denying that those who accept OR reject this doctrine are necessarily lost or Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yahweh is salvation Posted August 28, 2007 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 124 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/19/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted August 28, 2007 (edited) Hi Mutzrein. As a matter of interest I have pasted a snip from a sermon preached by Ephrem the Syrian around the 4th century AD. It gives you some idea of what the early church believed and taught about the Deity of Christ. 14. And the Father cried out, Edited August 28, 2007 by Yahweh is salvation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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