This passage has troubled me...

[firehill]

Shalom,

The Bible says there is no difference between Jew and Gentile, slave or free, male and female for acquiring grace. It does not state there is NO MORE. Of course, we are not all one sex. We are male and female, and as such, the Bible states we have different roles. That verse is misused to state we are all one sex now. I say, look in the mirror. There are still males and females, but all are equal in grace and salvation and love, yet in the Body as in the marriage, we have different roles.

Galatians is speaking about IF in Christ then one is a SON and IF a SON then an hier (since gentiles and women were never hiers when they joined Israel) but that is not the topic of this thread.

In the body prophecy is a gift but SPEAKING in the assembly is not some gift given to men. Paul didn't contradict himself saying all should speak and prophesy then turn around and say that women shouldn't speak because it was filthy. No, such was only filfthy to the holders of the Talmud.

[ParanoidAndroid]

Very controversial passage indeed. There are two main points addressed, as I see it - Women being silent, and women having authority to teach.

For the first, I think it's more a matter of not being loud. Remember that this was written in a time and era when women were far less educated than men. Early Christianity made great strides in giving rights to women. However, with the lack of education, women were still less knowledgeable than most men when it came to knowing the Bible. And so, in church, the woman was required to ask the husband later, because quite frankly, most of the time, coming from an uneducated source, the question would be quite easy to answer.

Things are not like that now. Despite the decline of Christianity in the Middle Ages which took those rights of women away again, education has now again become more or less equal.

This then leads straight on into the next point, having authority to teach. One could easily use the same argument as above and claim that women then were told to keep silent because they were generally ignorant of the Bible, and so women were not to preach for the same reason. In sense, it might be the same as a 1st year uni student teaching the lecture while the lecturer sat on and tried to learn.

However, I do not see this as a valid interpretation, because the passage continues on to give the reason for not teaching, and that has nothing to do with ignorance. As such, I believe this second half of the question is still very relevant. Women are commanded not to teach and have authority over men. Does this then make women inferior? By no means. Women still have vital roles to contribute, and still are all one under Christ, but like everything else in the Bible, women and men hold different roles. The church is no different, and women and men have different roles within this context. It doesn't make one "better" than another, just different.

That doesn't mean women can't teach at all. It just means they can't have authority in pastoral roles. Sunday School, Bible study groups, Womens Conferences, and I'm sure people can think of many other contexts, but these are just a few examples of ways in which women would be given the right to teach and use their talents for God.

That's my view, at least

~ Regards, PA

[firehill]

Very controversial passage indeed. There are two main points addressed, as I see it - Women being silent, and women having authority to teach.

In 1 co 14 teaching and having authority are not being addressed in which case teaching is a gift giving by the holy spirit to whom God wills and authority isn't even a gift of the spirit.

[None]

Remember that this was written in a time and era when women were far less educated than men. Early Christianity made great strides in giving rights to women. However, with the lack of education, women were still less knowledgeable than most men when it came to knowing the Bible. And so, in church, the woman was required to ask the husband later, because quite frankly, most of the time, coming from an uneducated source, the question would be quite easy to answer.

Things are not like that now. Despite the decline of Christianity in the Middle Ages which took those rights of women away again, education has now again become more or less equal.

Excellent point.

As far as authority goes, Deborah was a prophetess and a judge of the people of Israel. She had God-given authority to be in that position and I doubt she spoke softly.

[Vickilynn]

Galatians is speaking about IF in Christ then one is a SON and IF a SON then an hier (since gentiles and women were never hiers when they joined Israel) but that is not the topic of this thread.

In the body prophecy is a gift but SPEAKING in the assembly is not some gift given to men. Paul didn't contradict himself saying all should speak and prophesy then turn around and say that women shouldn't speak because it was filthy. No, such was only filfthy to the holders of the Talmud.

Shalom Firehill.,

Sorry, we're not talking the Talmud here, so let's not go down the anti-semitic rabbit trail again.

The point is, the Scriptures say plainly the women are to be silent in the assembly. Paul did not state that women should prophecy in the assembly either. That is an assumption. He did not direct his remarks to women.

http://www.gotquestions.org/women-silent-church.html

Do women have to remain silent in church?

women silent in church

Question: "Do women have to remain silent in church?"

Answer: 1 Corinthians 14:33-35 states, "...As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church." At first glance, this seems to be a blanket command that women are not allowed to speak at all in the church. However, 1 Corinthians 11:5 mentions women praying and prophesying in the church and does not condemn it. Therefore, 1 Corinthians 14:33-35 must not be an absolutely command for women to always be silent in church.

The context of this passage, and much of 1 Corinthians, is the order and structure of the church. The Corinthian church was noted for the chaos and lack of order that was rampant in that assembly (v. 33). It is interesting that no elders or pastors are mentioned, and the prophets were not even exercising control (see vv. 29, 32, 37). Everyone was participating with whatever expression they desired

[Vickilynn]

As far as authority goes, Deborah was a prophetess and a judge of the people of Israel. She had God-given authority to be in that position and I doubt she spoke softly.

Shalom,

Deborah is a tired and inaccurate argument for women in authority in the church.

Deborah was not in the church, Deborah was not a teacher of Bible doctrine to men, nor pastor, nor held SPIRITUAL authority over men. Who said she had G-d-given authority? Try again.

http://www.geocities.com/balancedword/wp/wp1.html

Well, here we are. You have found yourself at a Women's Ministry site and more than likely have clicked this link for answers. Although Balancedword Women's Online Ministry is a Ministry for Women, we adhere to the Holy Scriptures, The Word of God. Before I go any further I am well aware that many will refute this commentary and my mail box will be filled with comments such as, "you set women back fifty years", or "how dare you forsake your own?" Let me assure you that this is not a new concept to me. I have taken a great amount of heat over other studies on this site and I am assured that this will be no different.

This subject has burdened my heart greatly and when researching the subject I have found that most of the commentaries written on Women teaching Men come from men themselves. Therefore my Beloved Friend, I ask that you give another Sister in Christ the opportunity to share with you this subject from a Woman's perspective.

I think the first item of business that needs to be covered is that God loves and calls women to His service just as He does men. We are no less meaningful to God as men are. Remember He is NO respecter of persons, Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God. However our roles are very different and clear in the scripture:

1 Timothy 5:14: "I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, and give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully."

Proverbs 31: 11 The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil. 12 She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.

Titus 2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; 4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, 5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

Now some may take these scriptures and say, "Those are menial jobs that God calls women to do." First who says they are menial? Raising children, Caring for a home and making sure it run's smoothly. Is by know means MENIAL. Setting a Godly example and training young women as well is not menial. It is hard work and labour but how awesome a labour of love for us to serve our Lord this way.

With that said let us pray that we can come to a full understanding of God's will for us, and for understanding our role as Women of God:

Father God,

We come before you with our hearts humbled and our eyes and ears open to your Word. Lord I ask that you would make clear to all of us your will and desire for each of us. Father, Bless this time each lady spends here and use this opportunity for each os us to glean from the message you have laid upon my heart on this subject. In your precious name we pray, Amen

Okay, Now to answer the question. Is it Biblical for Women to serve behind the pulpit? Let's look at Scripture and make this decision based on the Word of God.

BIBLICAL FACTS:

1 Timothy 2: 11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

A. Let women learn: Here we see the principles that Women are called to learn, learn Christ, learn scripture, We must not think that we can use our sex as an excuse from learning what is necessary for salvation and Godly living.

1 Timothy 2: 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

B. The Greek word for teach is didasko {did-as'-ko} {Strongs1321} which means 1) to teach 1a) to hold discourse with others in order to instruct them, deliver didactic discourses 1b) to be a teacher 1c) to discharge the office of a teacher, conduct one's self as a teacher 2) to teach one 2a) to impart instruction 2b) instill doctrine into one 2c) the thing taught or enjoined 2d) to explain or expound a thing 2f) to teach one something. So we see here that a woman is not to instruct, instill doctrine into, explain or expound, or teach a man.

1 Timothy 2: 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

C. Paul is simply stating God's chain of command. The order of creation: man was created first, and given original authority. Paul sees Adam's authority as derived from God, and Eve's authority as derived from Adam. Eve (representing women) was deceived. But because of Eve's deception, Paul reasons that women have a greater tendency to spiritual deception. This is in fact very true. Women seem to be more spiritually sensitive than men; for good or evil.

D. Many believers will challenge Paul's instruction on Women in leadership and teaching men, quoting that this was in the old day. Making claim that we need not adhere to those "old ways"

However the Apostle Paul anticipated a rejection of this teaching therefore went a step further and wrote: 1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. 36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? 37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. We see here that Paul is not speaking his own words but the words of God himself. Now to say that this applies to the days of old would be saying that God changes, and we know clearly from the scripture that this is not true. Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever. 1 Corinthians 12 :6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

WHAT ABOUT DEBORAH?

It would seem that many of women preachers and their male advocates hold to their position knowing full-well that it is contrary to scripture. Often, when confronted, they will simply say that they know what the Bible says but that the passages in question are not for our dispensation. Or, the woman preacher herself, will appeal to her own experience claiming that it was God who has called them (as though God would do anything contrary to His Word?), often they are just indignant. But occasionally, you come across someone who will attempt to make a biblical case for women preachers. When they do, it seems that without fail they appeal to the judgeship of Deborah Judges 4.

There are many that do not know how to counter this argument! Once, when confronted with this subject. The conclusion is so simple. The first thing discovered was that Deborah lived at the time when "every man did that which was right in his own eyes" Judges 17:6 In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes. Judges 21:25 In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

We read that God raised up Othniel as a Judge. Judges 3:9 And when the children of Israel cried unto the LORD, the LORD raised up a deliverer to the children of Israel, who delivered them, even Othniel the son of Kenaz, Caleb's younger brother.

God raised up Gideon: Judges 6:12-And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him, and said unto him, The LORD is with thee, thou mighty man of valour. 13 And Gideon said unto him, Oh my Lord, if the LORD be with us, why then is all this befallen us? and where be all his miracles which our fathers told us of, saying, Did not the LORD bring us up from Egypt? but now the LORD hath forsaken us, and delivered us into the hands of the Midianites. 14 And the LORD looked upon him, and said, Go in this thy might, and thou shalt save Israel from the hand of the Midianites: have not I sent thee?

God raised up Samson Judges 13:24 And the woman bare a son, and called his name Samson: and the child grew, and the LORD blessed him. 25 And the Spirit of the LORD began to move him at times in the camp of Dan between Zorah and Eshtaol.

But with Deborah, we learn as much from what the Bible does not say as in what it does say. Regarding Deborah we read: "she judged Israel at that time" Judges 4:4 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time. Again at a time when "every man did that which was right in his own eyes" Deborah, without being raised up by God, judged Israel. Deborah was not a God called judge.

Her great accomplishment was to conquer Sisera. Yet we read in Hebrews 11 that it was Barak's faith that wrought this victory. Hebrews 11: 32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: 33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions. In Judges 4:8 we read that Barak was a coward who would only go if Deborah went with him. Judges 4:8 and Barak said unto her, If thou wilt go with me, then I will go: but if thou wilt not go with me, then I will not go. Deborah appears to be the one with the faith. But God gives Barak the credit in His "hall of fame." Hebrews 11: 32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: 33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.

We will not even begin to consider the theological implications here, rather, the point is that Deborah was by all indication not a great leader or a great woman but a usurper who did that which was right in her own eyes. The other argument given in support of women preachers is that Deborah was called a "prophetess" Judges 4:4 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time. However, a simple visit to the back of Strong's Concordance will eradicate this argument. The Hebrew word translated "prophetess" in our KJV is the word "nebiyah" which means "a prophets wife." Strongs Number 05031. So Deborah was neither a God called preacher, a God called judge, or a woman of greater than ordinary faith (remember that Barak is the one, not Deborah, accounted by God to have been the vessel of faith in Hebrews 11). Further, her being called a "prophetess" meant nothing more than that she was married to a prophet.

To all the women preachers of the world I ask, Will you be like Deborah? Will you do that which is right in your own eyes? Yes, Deborah was probably "saved" and yes she did do some Good. She probably judged right on many occasions and God may have even blessed people for following some of her judgements. But she was not God's ideal. Do you want to do a little good or do you want to be God's ideal?

INFERIOR?

This does not mean that women are inferior to men; or that they have no place in the work of Yahweh. The Holy Scriptures provide several examples of women God used:

Queen Esther, saved her people by being obedient to God's will.

Ruth, who once again through obedience left her land of idols and famine to become a woman of God thus she was used in the bloodline of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Priscilla, a woman who stood by her husband and choose to serve Christ in a time that it could have cost her, her own life. Yet, she persevered and helped the early church through her hospitality and commitment to the Great Commission.

Eunice, mother of Timothy who being obedient to her true calling of motherhood raised her son to know the Lord, in which God used to direct, guide and be a help to the Apostle Paul in the building and teaching the church.

Rahab, who's faith was so obvious and simple that thru her, her family was saved.

The Samaritan Woman at the well, whom went about telling her people of the saving Grace that Christ so freely gave her, thus others being saved from eternal damnation.

Dorcas, This woman was famous for being a New Testament woman of great honor.

None of these Women took authority over men-- their good deeds followed their obedience to God and His role for them. Any Christian woman who is not satisfied with this pattern, who feels she must stand behind a pulpit to be fulfilled really needs to take a step back and refocus on His true calling of her.

There lies NO possible room to say that God allowed for a Woman to be leader in the church be it Pastor, Deacon, Elder or Bishop. Note the qualities a deacon must have : 1 Timothy 3: 8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; 9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. 10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. 11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. 12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. UT OH! How can we even question this scripture? It is quiet clear that a deacon MUST be a man, have one wife, and rule his house well. This leaves no room at all for a woman to be called Deacon, 1. It's clear that the Deacon can have only 1 wife. Last I checked, with the exception of Vermont women couldn't have wives.

No one will doubt but that only men officiated as priests in the Temple services ordained of Almighty God. Had Yeshua the Messiah intended the New Testament church to function differently he would have made that fact known by appointing at least a few women apostles. But he didn't. He chose twelve men who, later, when selecting seven deacons also chose men instead of women for those duties. These facts have a message for the church today. Heed it.

How could a woman possibly be a pastor when she is forbidden to teach or to have any authority over men? Women can only be pastors if they openly disobey the Bible's teaching. One may ask why or how this situation has become so controversial and so misconstrued?

CHURCH STANDARDS

The sad truth of the situation is rather than the church affecting society. Society affects the church. Rather than the church standing on Biblical Content some have bowed down to the "equality in sex" rebellion that rocks our country today. There is a war among the sexes for total equality, this ranges from fire fighters, construction workers, and sadly enough even behind our pulpits. As women demand equality in all roles of society, why would one think that the church would be any different than any other establishment? The answer is clear the church too often looks for other sources outside of the Bible for guidance and even acceptance.

Once again I reiterate that Men and women were made for different roles, neither role being better than the other, but designed to compliment each other. If indeed we take the scripture literally as it was intended to be then we see that the New Testament affirms that men are to be the leaders in the home and church. Women were not created to rule these divine institutions; men were. The prophet Isaiah was condemning Israel when he said women ruled over them Isa. 3:12 As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths. In the church, according to the Bible, no woman is qualified to be a pastor or a deacon or in any other leadership position over men. Who says? God says!

"Let the woman learn in silence, with all subjection. But I do not suffer a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, was in the transgression" (1 Tim. 2:11-14).

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak: but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also says the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord" (1 Cor. 14:34-37).

In Ezekiel 22:30, we find a similar situation that we face today. God sought for a man, but couldn

[Emily~Anne]

Titus 2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; 4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, 5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

Now some may take these scriptures and say, "Those are menial jobs that God calls women to do." First who says they are menial? Raising children, Caring for a home and making sure it run's smoothly. Is by no means MENIAL. Setting a Godly example and training young women as well is not menial. It is hard work and labour but how awesome a labour of love for us to serve our Lord this way.

It's gonna take me awhile to read thorugh the whole post as I am very busy being a keeper at home, but I just wanted to give a hearty !AMEN! to this part especially! I will be reading the rest throughout the day and totally look forward to it.

[RebekahDavid]

Titus 2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; 4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, 5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

Now some may take these scriptures and say, "Those are menial jobs that God calls women to do." First who says they are menial? Raising children, Caring for a home and making sure it run's smoothly. Is by no means MENIAL. Setting a Godly example and training young women as well is not menial. It is hard work and labour but how awesome a labour of love for us to serve our Lord this way.

It's gonna take me awhile to read thorugh the whole post as I am very busy being a keeper at home, but I just wanted to give a hearty !AMEN! to this part especially! I will be reading the rest throughout the day and totally look forward to it.

i would like to add thank you to her amen a very well thought out post. I will reread it as well with much thought and prayer.

love your sister in Christ,

Rebekah David

[OopsMartin]

I don't have the time or the inclinations to correct the crass inaccuracies of this post # 36 but I do want to address the false accusations against a very renowned Jewish leader of the OT, Judge Deborah. And further, since the quoted is an example of the type of poor scholarship of that website, I would not recommend anyone take heed to anything else this person should write about on the subject of Christian women.

We will not even begin to consider the theological implications here, rather, the point is that Deborah was by all indication not a great leader or a great woman but a usurper who did that which was right in her own eyes. The other argument given in support of women preachers is that Deborah was called a "prophetess" Judges 4:4 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time. However, a simple visit to the back of Strong's Concordance will eradicate this argument. The Hebrew word translated "prophetess" in our KJV is the word "nebiyah" which means "a prophets wife." Strongs Number 05031. So Deborah was neither a God called preacher, a God called judge, or a woman of greater than ordinary faith (remember that Barak is the one, not Deborah, accounted by God to have been the vessel of faith in Hebrews 11). Further, her being called a "prophetess" meant nothing more than that she was married to a prophet.

Regarding nabi and nebiyah, nebiyah is simply the feminine, meaning a female prophet, which can be found in any good Hebrew dictionary. Strongs BTW is the least accurate place to look for Hebrew or Greek word meanings. The above person also misquoted Strongs quite well. In the additional notes Strongs shows that it can also mean an inspired woman (inspired speech) and if used by association it could mean a prophets wife. But nowhere is Lapidoth named as a prophet and history also excludes him from being a prophet. Further, if Deborah were a false prophet or a false Judge she would be so named in both the Bible and Jewish history. In short Deborah was a bona fide Prophet of Israel who was the God appointed Judge of Israel of that era who ruled Israel for 40 years, an exceptionally long rulership, and brought the peace of God to the land (Judges 6:31).

In Jewish History she is remembered with honor as one of the praiseworthy seven prophetesses including Miriam, Sarah, Huldah

[Emily~Anne]

Vickilynn, that website looks AWESOME and I have bookmarked it and thoroughly look forward to checking out the rest of that website!