This passage has troubled me...

[OopsMartin]

We're not discussing the Talmud. Paul's words in the Scriptures stand all by themselves. They are not a rebuttal, they are a positive command.

The OT and the NT comprise one whole Word of God. They do not work against each other. When people quote portions of the NT in such a manner that they cause them to blatantly disagree with the words of the OT, then they have misinterpreted them. All the Words of Scripture support each other, mesh together into one whole picture of the workings of God.

Shalom Ooops,

Sorry, you are mistaken. The TALMUD is not synonymous with the Old Testament. The Talmud is the Oral Law and includes extra-Biblical writings such as narratives from Jewish scholars and rabbis. Please read Judaism 101:

http://www.jewfaq.org/torah.htm

I'm quite aware of what the Talmud is VL. but my statement still stands.......

The OT and the NT comprise one whole Word of God. They do not work against each other. When people quote portions of the NT in such a manner that they cause them to blatantly disagree with the words of the OT, then they have misinterpreted them. All the Words of Scripture support each other, mesh together into one whole picture of the workings of God.

By trying to negate God Words and Works in the OT, ignoring God's using several anointed Jewish women, you seek to separate the Old and New Test. and create another work that is not connected with the OT. This is improper exegesis.

Shalom ooops,

You are wrong yet again. You're not very good at this, so please stop.

I have never ignored or negated the OT. You have nothing to say except ad homein fallacies.

I am confident that the correct exegesis is the one that I posted, that Deborah was not called by G-d, and was essentially out of His will by usurping authority over men. However, by posting this neither negates or ignores or separates the OT and the NT as you falsely accuse - again. Your post has again been reported to the Mods for ad homein attacks.

That is a very childish thing to do VickyLynn. Disagreeing with your interpretations in not an ad hominem attack on you. I'm aware that you are not aware that you are negating the OT with your interpretation. And I guess no one should dare to tell YOU otherwise.

Here you tell Ben in post #46 , "And MY authority comes from the Scriptures, not from people's opinion,

[Vickilynn]

That is a very childish thing to do VickyLynn. Disagreeing with your interpretations in not an ad hominem attack on you. I'm aware that you are not aware that you are doing that.

Here you tell Ben in post #46 ,

[Matthitjah]

Grace to you,

There appears to be a very spirited discussion going on here. Actually I have read all the reports and the personal attacks need to cease or else the thread will be closed. However, that said, I, for one, am for this discussion as long as it can remain civil. The last three pages have been quite a strong defense of both positions.

Let the hearer decide based upon the Word and the strength of the argument. In other words, state your best defense of your position and then move forward. Your position will not be heard for all the louder you repeat it. It will be heard based upon the strength of the Truth contained within it. The evidence will be in the Fruit of the Spirit and the assertive nature found in your argument. I say assertive and not aggressive. Aggressive stance is unsure and resorts to a show of strength, name calling, and domineering. Assertive humbly presents the evidence based upon the Word and allows God to adjust the hearer based upon the vessel bearing and keeping the focus on the subject matter at hand. Gods Glory.

Be blessed, be determined to be blessed.

Peace,

Dave

[Vickilynn]

Shalom Firehill,

You rightly said that Paul would not contradict himself and so please read these verses that also support 1 Cor 14:

1 Timothy 2: 11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

1 Timothy 2: 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

1 Timothy 2: 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

[Emily~Anne]

The OT and the NT comprise one whole Word of God. They do not work against each other. When people quote portions of the NT in such a manner that they cause them to blatantly disagree with the words of the OT, then they have misinterpreted them. All the Words of Scripture support each other, mesh together into one whole picture of the workings of God.

Why are so many attempting to uses verses that are NOT meant to be instructions for worship in the church to cancel out the verses that are actually meant to be instructions for worship in the church?

Read these words carefully EmilyAnne...

The OT and the NT comprise one whole Word of God. They do not work against each other.

when people use NT verses in such a way that it makes the works of God in the OT as wrong, then there is misinterpretation.

Or, do they misinterpret the OT and read more into what is not there? Like I said, I am in agreement that women can be in ministry. Titus two is one very fine example of that. However, a woman cannot be in a ministry that puts her in authority over men, thus she cannot according to biblical standards be a pastor. The OT does not cancel out the standards ourtined in 1 Timothy. Like you said, the OT and NT comprise one whole word of God.

p.s. please dont yell at me. I'm not impressed.

[Vickilynn]

Or, do they misinterpret the OT and read more into what is not there? Like I said, I am in agreement that women can be in ministry. Titus two is one very fine example of that. However, a woman cannot be in a ministry that puts her in authority over men, thus she cannot according to biblical standards be a pastor. The OT does not cancel out the standards ourtined in 1 Timothy. Like you said, the OT and NT comprise one whole word of God.

p.s. please dont yell at me. I'm not impressed.

Shalom Emily Anne,

[firehill]

Paul sums up it all in the last two verses:

39so that, brethren, earnestly desire to prophesy, and to speak with tongues do not forbid;

40let all things be done decently and in order.

1. All are to desire to prophesy.

2. SOME PEOPLE obviously were forbidding the speaking with tounges!

3. Paul says for them not to FORBID SPEAKING with tounges. The ONLY place that forbids anything are the two verses under question (VERSES 34 & 35) which Paul CONTRADICTS those verses right here in v39!

Finaly the matter was of order, not gender order but the order Paul spoke throughout the context of the passage, everyone speaking in turn etc.

[Vickilynn]

Paul sums up it all in the last two verses:

39so that, brethren, earnestly desire to prophesy, and to speak with tongues do not forbid;

40let all things be done decently and in order.

1. All are to desire to prophesy.

2. SOME PEOPLE obviously were forbidding the speaking with tounges!

3. Paul says for them not to FORBID SPEAKING with tounges. The ONLY place that forbids anything is the two verses under question ( 35) which Paul CONTRADICTS those verses right here in v39!

Finaly the matter was of order, not gender order but the order Paul spoke throughout the context of the passage, everyone speaking in turn etc.

Shalom Firehill,

Did you perhaps read this? It directly addresses your statements above:

http://www.gotquestions.org/women-silent-church.html

Do women have to remain silent in church?

women silent in church

Question: "Do women have to remain silent in church?"

Answer: 1 Corinthians 14:33-35 states, "...As in all the congregations of the saints, women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church." At first glance, this seems to be a blanket command that women are not allowed to speak at all in the church. However, 1 Corinthians 11:5 mentions women praying and prophesying in the church and does not condemn it. Therefore, 1 Corinthians 14:33-35 must not be an absolutely command for women to always be silent in church.

The context of this passage, and much of 1 Corinthians, is the order and structure of the church. The Corinthian church was noted for the chaos and lack of order that was rampant in that assembly (v. 33). It is interesting that no elders or pastors are mentioned, and the prophets were not even exercising control (see vv. 29, 32, 37). Everyone was participating with whatever expression they desired

[firehill]

Shalom Firehill,

You rightly said that Paul would not contradict himself and so please read these verses that also support 1 Cor 14:

1 Timothy 2: 11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

1 Timothy 2: 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

1 Timothy 2: 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

1. This thread isn't about that passage of scripture. But I'd invite you to provide a context beginning with chp 1 of Tim that shows a prohibiton on correct teaching! (NO ONE has been able to provide that CONTEXT!!! Provide such an exegises. We know that the entire context is about false teaching. See the 1 Tim 2:15 thread in doctrinal questions. Almost every point on that passage at least that I can think of was covered in that thread so I invite any to have a look!)

2. Those passages 'support' 1 co 14 according to what you believe which is based on YOUR interpretation/belief about them! So actualy they don't.

[Vickilynn]

Shalom Firehill,

You rightly said that Paul would not contradict himself and so please read these verses that also support 1 Cor 14:

1 Timothy 2: 11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

1 Timothy 2: 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

1 Timothy 2: 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

1. This thread isn't about those passages of scripture. But I'd invite you to provide a context beginning with chp 1 of Tim that shows a prohibiton on correct teaching! (NO ONE has been able to provide that CONTEXT!!! We know that the entire context is about false teaching. See the 1 Tim 2:15 thread in doctrinal questions. Almost every point on that passage at least that I can think of was covered in that thread so I invite any to have a look!)

2. Those passages 'support' 1 co 14 according to what you believe which is based on YOUR interpretation/belief about them! So actualy they don't.

Shalom Firehill,

The verses in 1 Timothy prove that Paul was being consistent in his teaching of women not being in authority over women and thus does directly apply to this discussion.

The same YOUR interpretations do.