Baptism for the dead?

[Eliyahuw]

Eliyahuw,

so now your saying theres two salvations. jeesze yall are screwed up!

Your view denies the creation and purpose of man. If the fall had not even occured, you and I would have had to work with God to attain immortality.

Scripture please? Adam was created perfect. he was also created with free will. Having free will is not a imperfection.

You have yet to show any texts that refute what I am saying. Refute Rom 11:32, or Rom 5:18-19, or I Cor 15:20-22, Col 1:15-20, and I could give you more.

Salvation is not by works. Those who teach salvation by works claim that they really believe in salvation by grace through faith, but their teaching contradicts their claim. If you say that one must do certain things in order to be saved, or continue performing good works after he is saved in order to keep salvation, is salvation by works.

Ephesians 2:8,9 plainly says:

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of ourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. "

Salvation cannot be a combination of grace and works.

Romans 11:6 plainly says, "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

It is impossible to mix grace and works. Either God saves a man by grace, or man saves himself by some form of works. IF you say that one must be baptized in water in order to be saved, teach salvation by works.

Salvation Is Not by Baptism. Baptism is a work of righteousness. When Jesus went to John the Baptist and requested baptism, He said in Matthew 3:15 thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness...

So baptism is a work of righteousness. And the Bible says in Titus 3:5, "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us . . . ."

If we are not saved by works, as the Bible plainly says, and baptism is a work of righteousness, then it is clear that we are not saved by being baptized.

Salvation Is by Grace Through Faith

God's only plan of salvation in every age has been and always will be by grace through faith plus nothing. Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

Jesus Himself is the only means of salvation. One is saved by simple faith in Jesus Christ. John 3:36 says, "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

The word hath is in the present tense.

The Bible promises that the person who believes on the Son has everlasting life. It is not something he is going to receive after he is baptized, but it is something he has the moment he believes on the Son.

In John 5:24 Jesus said, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." Again the bible says that one has everlasting life the moment he places his faith in Christ.

The same teaching is found again and again in the Bible. John 6:47 says, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life." The moment one believes, he has everlasting life, he is passed from death unto life.

In the Bible people believed before they were baptized. That's why it is called "believer's baptism." Acts 2:41 says, "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized. In Acts 8:36 the Ethiopian eunuch asked Philip, "See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?" And in the very next verse Philip said, "If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest . . . . " In the same verse the eunuch replied, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." And it was in the next verse, after he believed, that Philip baptized the eunuch.

If one has everlasting life the moment he believes, as Jesus plainly promises, and he is baptized after he believes, then it is clear that he is saved before he ever gets to the baptismal waters.

Belief is Trust. Those that believe in christ trust christ.

In John 3:18 Jesus divides the whole world into two groups: those who are believing on the Son and those who are not believing on the Son. And here is exactly what He said: "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

IF you don't believe in christ, your already sentenced to hell and you don't go to a judgement to have your destiny determined. If you do not believe on Christ, you are condemned already-for one simple reason: because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Romans 6:23 says, "For the wages of sin is death . . . ." If we pay what we owe as sinners, it means we must die, go into Hell and stay there forever. That is the penalty for sin.

But Jesus Christ bore our sins in His own body and died on the cross to pay our sin debt.

John 3:16: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

We are sinners. We owe the sin debt. Jesus Christ was not a sinner. He died on the cross to pay that debt. One is saved by simple faith in Christ.

Salvation was in the OT too.

Jesus Christ did die in our place to pay our sin debt, and we trust Him completely for salvation; while those in the Old

Testament looked forward to the death of Christ, believing that He would die for their sins. So they died with their

faith in Christ, just as we on this side of the cross die with our faith in Christ.

People are saved exactly the same way in every age, in every dispensation-by simple faith in Christ. This is made plain in Acts 10:43, where the Scripture says: "To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins." The Old Testament prophets preached remission of sins by faith in Christ.

NOT EVERYONE was baptized yet were saved!

Luke 7:37-50 A woman who was saved without being baptized. Jesus said unto her, "Thy sins are forgiven." And He went on to say, "Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace."

Guess what she wasn't baptized but she was Saved. Christ said so.

Luke 18:35-43 a blind man who was saved by faith without baptism. Here is the record: "And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee."

No baptism here! Christ said that he was saved!

Luke 18:13,14. This poor sinner simply cried out, "God be merciful to me a sinner." And Jesus said of him, "I tell you, this man went down to his house justified

The publican was saved without baptism! Christ said so.

The thief on the cross in Luke 23:39-43. This poor thief, dying on a cross, requested of Jesus in verse 42, "Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom." And Jesus answered him in verse 43, saying, "Verily [truly] I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." He was never baptized; but according to the very words of Jesus, he was with Christ that very day in Paradise.

Baptism, cannot possibly be a part of God's plan of salvation. Salvation is a gift of God which is not deserved, is not bought and cannot be paid for. Salvation is a gift to be received, not a prize to be earned by our good works, including the good work of baptism.

All you have to do is receive by faith what Jesus Christ has purchased with His own blood. John 1: 12 says, "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name."

It says were sons of God by believing on his name!, not by being baptized.

he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" (John 3:36).

If baptism were included in believing, then it wouldn't have been necessary to add the expression, "and is baptized." Acts 2:41 plainly says, "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized

Believing does not include baptism. Baptism is an act of obedience. it is the first act of obedience for those who trust Christ as Saviour, but it is not an instrument of salvation.

In Acts 16:30 when the Philippian jailor asked, " Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" Paul answered in verse 31, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved . . . .

Acts 4:12 says, "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

[Eliyahuw]

If you would read your bible you would see that there we two Testaments and two laws. One was the Old Law that was given to the Jews by Moses. The other was given to the Jews by Christ and spread throughout the world by the Apostles and disciples. The Law of Christ did not come into effect until after the death of Christ. Being as such, anybody who died before Christ died on the Christ died under the Old Law.

I read my bible. i addressed what your saying, and that is THOSE IN THE OT were saved Through Faith and the promise of christ and it is the same as those who are saved after christ, by Grace, through faith.

Their saved by the same thing! no law has anything to do with it.

The doctrine of baptism for the remission of sins was not a law yet until after the death of Christ.

Its not a law after christ. Nor was it a law before christ. the law was fulfilled. We no longer live under the law!

Hebrews 9:15-17 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

This passage is taken out of context. You omitted the important part of this. Thats ok, i'll put it in here for you

Hbr 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

Hbr 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].

Hbr 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

Hbr 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Hbr 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

it covers the OT believers as well as the NT believers. His death and shedding of blood are what redeem us and make us righteous. We just have to claim his redemption.

You will never, ever see baptism taught or commanded in Moses' law.

Oh your wrong on that! Baptism was practiced, taught, in the OT. if it weren't then how do you explain John the baptist baptizing??

The thief on the cross was forgiven by Christ himself.

Yes and were not? I dont' know about you but christ forgave me of my sins! Man didn't! The preacher doesn't have the power to forgive mysins, nor does any other person on this earth. The only one who has that power is christ.

Once again. like you do with many other verses, you let some of the verses in the bible contradict or depower others.

JUST LIKE YOU DO?? You ignore the verses that state that Salvation is only through Christ, and not Baptism! You use these few verses to try and negate the others!

You are letting the thief on the cross countermand Christ's commandment to go into all the world preaching that he that believes and is baptized shall be saved. If you want to go that route then since the thief was not baptized he did not have Christ.

Your saying that theres two different salvations then!?? there must be if the thief recieved one and we get another! hmmm That makes christ a liar then,.

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

According to the way you handle the scriptures the thief did not have Christ because he was not baptized to be able to put him on. And also since he was not baptized this won't happen either -

CHerry picking again, You have taken this verse out of context!

The preceding verse says very plainly that we are saved by simple faith in Christ.

Gal 3:26 says, "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus." A study of the book of Galatians will reveal that the whole book was written to prove that people are saved by grace through faith and not by works. I have allready shown that baptism is a work of righteousness.

We know that is not so because Christ forgave him of his sins right there on the spot and being as such baptism was not required of him. That was Christ's mercy.

So your saying that some men are exempt from the law. Hmmm sorry but that negates the entire OT.

Ephesians 2:1-5 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Romans describes us as being quickened together with Christ through baptism. These verse above describe that event and says that this is the grace that we are saved by. You are separating the two and letting one contradict the other, when these scriptures have put them together.

Ok, your quote of scripture and MY bible do not say were quickened through baptism. Your adding words to the bible. Yes we are quickened through his salvation of us, by Grace through faith. Grace is all that saves not baptism, not works.

What about Acts 22:16. Is paul teaching a different salvation than the one he taught to the jailer!???

in Acts 16:31 paul says

Act 16:28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.

Act 16:29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,

Act 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

and

Act 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

No they don't contradict. Acts 22:16, says if you read it right, Arise wash away thy sins by calling on the name of the lord, and be baptized.

Since the blood is the ONLY thing that washes away our sins, and the ONLY way to get to the blood is through calling on the name of the lord (confess with thy mouth), then its plain that baptism has nothing to do with washing of sins.

Nicodemus asked how a man could be born again, and Jesus explained that a man is saved by simple faith in Christ. In verses 14 and 15 He said, "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life." Here Jesus said a man has eternal life simply by believing. No mention is made of baptism.

verse 16 He said, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Here the Scripture makes it clear again that one has everlasting life simply by believing in Christ without being baptized.

verse 18 our Christ divided the entire world into two groups: he that believeth on the Son and he that believeth not.

And He said, "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." Here again the Scripture makes it very plain that a man is condemned for one reason only-"because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." No mention of baptism.

verse 36 by says, "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." Again, nothing about baptism; and again, the clear promise, if one believes on the Son he has everlasting life, whether or not he is ever baptized.

When Christ told Nicodemus in verse 3, "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God," Nicodemus responded in verse 4, "How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"

Jesus explained in verse 5 that a man must be born of water and of the Spirit. The water has reference to the physical birth, and the Spirit has reference to the spiritual birth, as is seen in verse 6. Nicodemus thought the Lord was talking about a rebirth, another fleshly birth. Our Lord explained that one must not only be born of the flesh, but he must be born of the Spirit.

the Bible teaches that everyone who trusts Christ as Saviour should be baptized as an act of obedience,

But he must not trust baptism for salvation.

Acts 4:12 says, "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

[Eliyahuw]

Now if baptism by water was a requirement for salvation, then your saying all those people who recieved christ, after his death burial and resurrection, weren't saved, and i can pretty much guarantee by the odds and statistics that many of those people that turned to christ but weren't baptized because it wasn't even being done, died. your theory would condemn them to hell.

I'm not saying that. Scripture is. We are baptized into Christ death, burial, resurrection, and are freed from our sins, but that does not take place if we are not baptized.

Hmmm your saying it, not the scripture. The scripture is very plain and clear. you aren't saved by baptism OTHERWISE Christ would have told that woman at the well to go be baptized, or he would have told the theif, ooops your out of luck, you have to be baptized, or the publican that ohh his faith was enough to heal his eyes, but it wasn't enough to save him.

Christ said in all those cases, their faith saved them. NOT BAPTISM! So by that, if Christ said their faith saved them, and now your saying that baptism is what saves us, then your making christ a liar! you can't have it both ways!

[Eliyahuw]

Christ said, He that believeth AND is baptized shall be saved". Do I believe you or Christ?

The Scripture does not say, 'but he that believeth not and is baptized not shall be damned.' One is damned simply by not believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. This is consistent with all the other clear passages in the Bible on salvation by grace through faith. John 3:36b says and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." John 3:18b says . .. . . . he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Lets put it this way.....

suppose i wanted to take a trip to Atlanta. I could say

He that getteth on the jet plane and sitteth down shall fly to Atlanta, but he that getteth not on the plane shall not fly to Atlanta."

If I get on the plane i'll fly to Atlanta but it doesn't require me to sit down. But if i don't get on the plane, i don't go period!

NOT EVERYONE was baptized yet were saved!

Luke 7:37-50 A woman who was saved without being baptized. Jesus said unto her, "Thy sins are forgiven." And He went on to say, "Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace."

Guess what she wasn't baptized but she was Saved. Christ said so.

Luke 18:35-43 a blind man who was saved by faith without baptism. Here is the record: "And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee."

No baptism here! Christ said that he was saved!

Luke 18:13,14. This poor sinner simply cried out, "God be merciful to me a sinner." And Jesus said of him, "I tell you, this man went down to his house justified

The publican was saved without baptism! Christ said so.

The thief on the cross in Luke 23:39-43. This poor thief, dying on a cross, requested of Jesus in verse 42, "Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom." And Jesus answered him in verse 43, saying, "Verily [truly] I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." He was never baptized; but according to the very words of Jesus, he was with Christ that very day in Paradise.

You are taking events that happened BEFORE the death of Christ. It was AFTER the death of Christ and his resurrection that he commanded baptism for the remission of sins. I have already proved that Christ had the power and ability to forgive sins while he was on this earth. That had nothing to do with after he arose and ascended.

[ted]

Please do not use personal attacks when posting. I know these topics get heated, but we must do our best to discuss the issues without reverting to attacks and jabs.

t.

[Massorite]

Eliyahuw

Its not a law after christ. Nor was it a law before christ. the law was fulfilled. We no longer live under the law!

How can I believe anybodies doctrine that will even come close to making a statement like this.

If we are not under a law then how could Christ die on the cross for our sins when a sin is a transgression of the law?

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

1 John 1:8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

You cannot have sin without a law.

John The Baptist was a messenger sent to prepare the way for Christ. What he was doing was what God commanded. Nobody else recorded in the Old Testament was commanded to do such nor do we see examples. Just because John did this does not mean the whole Hebrew nation was practicing it since the time of Moses.

You got it right cardcapter. The very first laws that God gave to Moses were the ten commandments and we are still under those laws to day. When Jesus came He did not come to do away with the law but He came to refine the law. In the old testament if a man only thought about murdering someone it was not a sin. But when Jesus came He fulfilled the law thereby making it a sin to even think about killing someone saying that if one has thought about killing some one he has already done it in his heart. With Jesus the condition of the heart is of the utmost importance.

[Eliyahuw]

Eliyahuw

Its not a law after christ. Nor was it a law before christ. the law was fulfilled. We no longer live under the law!

How can I believe anybodies doctrine that will even come close to making a statement like this.

If we are not under a law then how could Christ die on the cross for our sins when a sin is a transgression of the law?

Because his death fulfilled law, and freed us from its condemnation

John The Baptist was a messenger sent to prepare the way for Christ. What he was doing was what God commanded. Nobody else recorded in the Old Testament was commanded to do such nor do we see examples. Just because John did this does not mean the whole Hebrew nation was practicing it since the time of Moses.

Yes it was recorded, it was a part of the cleansing rituals that the jews had to do, to offer up sacrifices.

Study your jewish history.

[Eliyahuw]

Now if baptism by water was a requirement for salvation, then your saying all those people who recieved christ, after his death burial and resurrection, weren't saved, and i can pretty much guarantee by the odds and statistics that many of those people that turned to christ but weren't baptized because it wasn't even being done, died. your theory would condemn them to hell.

I'm not saying that. Scripture is. We are baptized into Christ death, burial, resurrection, and are freed from our sins, but that does not take place if we are not baptized.

Hmmm your saying it, not the scripture. The scripture is very plain and clear. you aren't saved by baptism OTHERWISE Christ would have told that woman at the well to go be baptized, or he would have told the theif, ooops your out of luck, you have to be baptized, or the publican that ohh his faith was enough to heal his eyes, but it wasn't enough to save him.

Christ said in all those cases, their faith saved them. NOT BAPTISM! So by that, if Christ said their faith saved them, and now your saying that baptism is what saves us, then your making christ a liar! you can't have it both ways!

Aren't you even paying attention? You are still trying to prove this by using people before the New Testament was set into place. It was AFTER the death and resurrection of Christ that he COMMANDED baptism.

WOW now your getting it! Yes, those that came before Christs death, were SAVED without baptism. they were SAVED by Grace, through faith. NOT BY WORKS OF ANY KIND!

[Eliyahuw]

Eliyahuw

Its not a law after christ. Nor was it a law before christ. the law was fulfilled. We no longer live under the law!

How can I believe anybodies doctrine that will even come close to making a statement like this.

If we are not under a law then how could Christ die on the cross for our sins when a sin is a transgression of the law?

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

1 John 1:8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

You cannot have sin without a law.

John The Baptist was a messenger sent to prepare the way for Christ. What he was doing was what God commanded. Nobody else recorded in the Old Testament was commanded to do such nor do we see examples. Just because John did this does not mean the whole Hebrew nation was practicing it since the time of Moses.

You got it right cardcapter. The very first laws that God gave to Moses were the ten commandments and we are still under those laws to day. When Jesus came He did not come to do away with the law but He came to refine the law. In the old testament if a man only thought about murdering someone it was not a sin. But when Jesus came He fulfilled the law thereby making it a sin to even think about killing someone saying that if one has thought about killing some one he has already done it in his heart. With Jesus the condition of the heart is of the utmost importance.

Actually christians are no longer under the condemnation of the law. unbelievers are! once you believe on Christ, the law is written on your heart and your heart is circumsized which sets us apart.

just like you cannot undo a circumsision, you cannot undo salvation.

[Massorite]

Eliyahuw

Its not a law after christ. Nor was it a law before christ. the law was fulfilled. We no longer live under the law!

How can I believe anybodies doctrine that will even come close to making a statement like this.

If we are not under a law then how could Christ die on the cross for our sins when a sin is a transgression of the law?

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

1 John 1:8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

You cannot have sin without a law.

John The Baptist was a messenger sent to prepare the way for Christ. What he was doing was what God commanded. Nobody else recorded in the Old Testament was commanded to do such nor do we see examples. Just because John did this does not mean the whole Hebrew nation was practicing it since the time of Moses.

You got it right cardcapter. The very first laws that God gave to Moses were the ten commandments and we are still under those laws to day. When Jesus came He did not come to do away with the law but He came to refine the law. In the old testament if a man only thought about murdering someone it was not a sin. But when Jesus came He fulfilled the law thereby making it a sin to even think about killing someone saying that if one has thought about killing some one he has already done it in his heart. With Jesus the condition of the heart is of the utmost importance.

Actually christians are no longer under the condemnation of the law. unbelievers are! once you believe on Christ, the law is written on your heart and your heart is circumsized which sets us apart.

just like you cannot undo a circumsision, you cannot undo salvation.

That is not at all correct. Salvation can be undone by going back to living in unrepented sin with no regard for God. The bible says that there will be no drunkards in heaven and if you are a drunkard who is living in unrepented sin when you die the salvation you received was for not. In Matthew 25 1-13 there is no question about the fact that all ten virgins took their lamps and went forth to meet the Bridegroom. Which means that all ten virgins knew who Christ was and were awaiting His return. But when the time came only five were allowed to go in and then the door was shut. Those 5 virgins who got "left behind" knew that they had been left behind by Christ because they ran to the door that was closed banging on and calling out His name "Lord, Lord let us in". Only the saved know who Christ is and only the saved who will be left behind will know they have indeed been left behind. The rest of the unsaved will be plumb confused and freaked out. We must endure until the end because if we don't endure until the end we will not receive the promise. We must ran the good race until we cross the finish line because if we give up half way down the track we will not receive the reward for crossing the finish line.

Like you said. The law is now written in our hearts which means that we are still under the laws that are written in our hearts but we don't have any of the condemnation that goes with the law of old