Another take on "Free Will"

[Rhonda Lou]

(an aside to P.A.: i can't quite wrap myself around predestination even tho if you really think about it, it would be a much more comfortable viewpoint.)

You think so? I guess there is a certain charm to holding the belief that God is in control of everything. But it doesn't make sense to me. To me, it makes sooooooo much more sense that free will exists. Our existence on earth is a direct result of God's divine judgement that we can choose to follow him or not follow him. that is the point of our existence.

The problem is, after reading the Bible, I found it said something quite different. Though free will makes much more sense to me than predestination, the fact that I believe in the words of the Bible have led me to only two possible scenarios. 1 - I could ignore the words of the Bible and take the comfortable route that makes more sense to me as a human. Or 2 - I could change my belief to suit the Bible.

As a Christian who follows the Bible, I have no choice but to do the latter. The problem with going with what makes sense is why rely too much on our own personal feelings and experiences, and stop relying on God. If it were up to me, I would allow women to preach and happily endorse homosexual marriage. But I know this is against God's wishes. And when my understanding and God's understanding conflict, the only possible answer is to concede to God's wishes.

At least, that's how I view it

~ PA

Nobody knows exactly how predestination and free will work, but, like you, I could not get around what the Bible said. There are SO MANY predestination passages in there, that I could not and cannot igore it. I know many say that "predestination" means that God knows what we will do, and for awhile I bought that. But Romas 8:29-30 says, "Those God foreknew...He also predestined". "Foreknowing" is knowing beforehand, "predestination" is acting on the knowledge. As hard as I tried, I could not get around that; I still can't.

On one hand it is absolutely frustrating to me -- control freak above all control freaks -- that I have no control. On the other hand, where I think the doctrine can be comforting is that when things go terribly wrong, it is nice to believe that there is a God out there who has a purpose, and is in control, than one sitting up in heaven twiddling His thumbs waiting to see what we'll do next, so He can come up with a plan to get us out of the mess we got in ourselves. Romans 8:28 says, that "all things work together for good to those who love God -- to those who are "THE called" according to HIS purpose. Not just called, but "THE called". Since that includes me, I can know, that no matter what, it will turn out well for God's glory, which means it will turn out for my best good -- even if not always in the way that I envisioned.

The other area of comfort is that -- I don't trust ME at all!! I'm rebellious, proud, arrogant, and did I mention, I'm a control freak? But I trust GOD implicitly -- since I'm saved and know it was all HIM, I can trust the salvation, does that make any sense? In a sense, it is even more liberating when I preach the gospel, knowing I can't mess God up -- if the other person is to be saved, it is God that does it in His own timing. I just am "there", speaking God's words, and prayerfully planting a seed, which God can use in the time of His own choosing!! I like that.

Bottom line for all of these: It is comforting to me because I do NOT trust myself to do anything right -- I DO trust GOD to.

[tsth]

Considering that God foreknew everyone, and what they would choose, isn't it quite possible that predestination is the preordained job that God gives each one of us, to work according to His will? Just as with Pharoah, God knew that he would ultimately choose to rebel, but God did not preordain him to rebel. He did however, as the Scriptures say, bore with longsuffering (great patience) over Pharoah's rebellion, and in the process of revealing Himself to Pharoah, HE gave Pharoah the position and instrument of use in God's hand, of disciplining the Israelites. We can be instruments of righteousness OR wickedness, but either way, depending on whether or not we choose to rebel or obey, we will be used for good in God's eyes. Whether an instrument of "noble" or "ignoble" purpose, such as Moses, OR Pharoah.

2 Timothy 2

20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for noble purposes and some for ignoble. 21 If a man cleanses himself from the latter, he will be an instrument for noble purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

Isaiah 32:7 The scoundrel's methods are wicked, he makes up evil schemes to destroy the poor with lies, even when the plea of the needy is just. 8 But the noble man makes noble plans, and by noble deeds he stands.

Romans 9:

22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction?

(As I said earlier, God could have just killed Pharoah, but instead even those who choose to do wickedly, can be used of God, for His purpose. So, we can still have free-will AND serve God's purposes, even when we rebel. It's just a matter of the final outcome and eternal fire. If we choose to be slaves to wickedness rather than righteousness.)

Exodus 9:13 Then the Lord said to Moses, "Get up early in the morning, confront Pharaoh and say to him, 'This is what the Lord, the God of the Hebrews, says: Let my people go, so that they may worship me, 14 or this time I will send the full force of my plagues against you and against your officials and your people, so you may know that there is no one like me in all the earth. 15 For by now I could have stretched out my hand and struck you and your people with a plague that would have wiped you off the earth. 16 But I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth. 17 You still set yourself against my people and will not let them go. 18 Therefore, at this time tomorrow I will send the worst hailstorm that has ever fallen on Egypt, from the day it was founded till now. 19 Give an order now to bring your livestock and everything you have in the field to a place of shelter, because the hail will fall on every man and animal that has not been brought in and is still out in the field, and they will die.'" 20 Those officials of Pharaoh who feared the word of the Lord hurried to bring their slaves and their livestock inside. 21 But those who ignored the word of the Lord left their slaves and livestock in the field.

In His Love,

Suzanne

[Massorite]

Hi Cajunboy,

I'm personally of the view that the Bible teaches predestination. Romans 9 and Romans 6 are of particular value, as is 1 Peter 2:8. Exodus contains at least 4 references to God "hardening Pharaoh's heart", which implies he had no free will, though on other occassions, it states that Pharaoh hardened his own heart, so it sounds like God did harden the heart, but it was Pharaoh who allowed it.

But thank you for the post, it is correct that the language now is different to what it was back then and the language needs to be understood in its proper historical context. Would you mind sharing the passages that speak of man's will that you have found? You said taht you found 8 references to this in the Bible, I'd be interested to see these to see how they affect the belief of free will.

Thanks mate

~ Paranoid Android

Heello there Cajun,

You pose a very good question that is paradoxial. I have looked at this as well and came up with my own conclusions be them correct or not I do not know.

This is one of those questions that depends on if you have a calvanistic view or not. We had a thread discussing the views a while ago,(no too long ago)

I have found that each reading that contained free will within the sciptures were situational.

In deut. chapter 30 It is said "CHOOSE LIFE" I forgot the verse...maybe around 17 or 18. And then we have the statement that We came to the Father" NOT OF OURSELVES!"

So in these two verses we have complete contradiction. Yet they certainly differ from situations.

And of course you have Paul who is talking about doing what he doesn't want to instead of what he should.

We do choose to Love the Lord, We do choose to Obey Him as well And we can choose not too. Coming to the saving Grace knowledge is the mere fact If we did not have The Holy Spirit wooing us to Him we would not be with Him.

My daughter Emily who is seven, I allow certain days for her to make choices, But I guide her to the correct ones previously and hope for the best, Her choices are good for her age. Then there are times she has no choice at all. She needs her mama to make them for she has not matured to that level yet. Either way The Love between us remain unconditional and free . So what you ask ..for me the answer is situational.

One may say Adam had no say being created and was given the free will to Love His Father, but yet was given the free will to sin. There are more scriptures that deal with free will and plenty of other words used in relation to 'free will'. ... love ya all...patricia ( this may not give you the answer but it may give you a different perspective)

Thanks Pat

IN God

Cajun

There are actually 17 verses that speak of freewill offerings to the Lord in the old testament which include offerings of a phisical sacrifices of animals and crops and of praises and of offering ones self to the Lord for use as He see's fit.

[Rhonda Lou]

Considering that God foreknew everyone, and what they would choose, isn't it quite possible that predestination is the preordained job that God gives each one of us, to work according to His will? Just as with Pharoah, God knew that he would ultimately choose to rebel, but God did not preordain him to rebel. He did however, as the Scriptures say, bore with longsuffering (great patience) over Pharoah's rebellion, and in the process of revealing Himself to Pharoah, HE gave Pharoah the position and instrument of use in God's hand, of disciplining the Israelites. We can be instruments of righteousness OR wickedness, but either way, depending on whether or not we choose to rebel or obey, we will be used for good in God's eyes. Whether an instrument of "noble" or "ignoble" purpose, such as Moses, OR Pharoah.

2 Timothy 2

20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for noble purposes and some for ignoble. 21 If a man cleanses himself from the latter, he will be an instrument for noble purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

Isaiah 32:7 The scoundrel's methods are wicked, he makes up evil schemes to destroy the poor with lies, even when the plea of the needy is just. 8 But the noble man makes noble plans, and by noble deeds he stands.

Romans 9:

22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction?

(As I said earlier, God could have just killed Pharoah, but instead even those who choose to do wickedly, can be used of God, for His purpose. So, we can still have free-will AND serve God's purposes, even when we rebel. It's just a matter of the final outcome and eternal fire. If we choose to be slaves to wickedness rather than righteousness.)

Exodus 9:13 Then the Lord said to Moses, "Get up early in the morning, confront Pharaoh and say to him, 'This is what the Lord, the God of the Hebrews, says: Let my people go, so that they may worship me, 14 or this time I will send the full force of my plagues against you and against your officials and your people, so you may know that there is no one like me in all the earth. 15 For by now I could have stretched out my hand and struck you and your people with a plague that would have wiped you off the earth. 16 But I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth. 17 You still set yourself against my people and will not let them go. 18 Therefore, at this time tomorrow I will send the worst hailstorm that has ever fallen on Egypt, from the day it was founded till now. 19 Give an order now to bring your livestock and everything you have in the field to a place of shelter, because the hail will fall on every man and animal that has not been brought in and is still out in the field, and they will die.'" 20 Those officials of Pharaoh who feared the word of the Lord hurried to bring their slaves and their livestock inside. 21 But those who ignored the word of the Lord left their slaves and livestock in the field.

In His Love,

Suzanne

Thank you for your response. The passage that I referenced from Romans 8:29-30 says that whome HE foreknew, HE predestinated. The complete passage in 2 Timothy 2 is: "But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour, If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vssel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared for eevery good work...And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God preadventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth." (2 Timothy 2:20-21, 24-25)

You are correct; both free will and predestination are there. I mentioned at the beginning of my post that nobody is certain how they work. But, in my own finite mind, what I see is that God DOES work in the lives of others in a predetermined way, in that He foreknows and predestines. However, He doesn't let us know everything He's planning, so to us, it is free will. The closest I can come to an explanation is the old anectode of a new believer knocking on the door of salvation, of his own free will. As He opens the door, God is standing on the other side, saying, "Right on time." We never know what God goes through to ensure that we become believers -- which things were thwarted, and which were left to happen to draw us closer to Himself. From our perspective, it is free will, since we are making decisions based on the information we have. But God has it all worked out in advance, and works in our life. It is not exactly that we only have the illusion of a free will -- because we freely choose -- I look at it like God doesn't trust us, so He hedges His bet with predestination.

This may be TOTALLY wrong -- and I can't think of a single verse in support or denial of it. I'm just guessing here. The only thing I know for sure is that there are enough verses relative the predestination that I can't just write it off as something I don't want to believe. And I'm honestly not speaking for you or anybody else here, I'm just speaking about my own thought process as I tried to sort all of this out. The verses I found are as follows:

Then, there are the passages which clearly state that God chose us. Ephesians 1:3-5 says,

[MeCajunboy]

(an aside to P.A.: i can't quite wrap myself around predestination even tho if you really think about it, it would be a much more comfortable viewpoint.)

You think so? I guess there is a certain charm to holding the belief that God is in control of everything. But it doesn't make sense to me. To me, it makes sooooooo much more sense that free will exists. Our existence on earth is a direct result of God's divine judgement that we can choose to follow him or not follow him. that is the point of our existence.

The problem is, after reading the Bible, I found it said something quite different. Though free will makes much more sense to me than predestination, the fact that I believe in the words of the Bible have led me to only two possible scenarios. 1 - I could ignore the words of the Bible and take the comfortable route that makes more sense to me as a human. Or 2 - I could change my belief to suit the Bible.

As a Christian who follows the Bible, I have no choice but to do the latter. The problem with going with what makes sense is why rely too much on our own personal feelings and experiences, and stop relying on God. If it were up to me, I would allow women to preach and happily endorse homosexual marriage. But I know this is against God's wishes. And when my understanding and God's understanding conflict, the only possible answer is to concede to God's wishes.

At least, that's how I view it

~ PA

Nobody knows exactly how predestination and free will work, but, like you, I could not get around what the Bible said. There are SO MANY predestination passages in there, that I could not and cannot igore it. I know many say that "predestination" means that God knows what we will do, and for awhile I bought that. But Romas 8:29-30 says, "Those God foreknew...He also predestined". "Foreknowing" is knowing beforehand, "predestination" is acting on the knowledge. As hard as I tried, I could not get around that; I still can't.

On one hand it is absolutely frustrating to me -- control freak above all control freaks -- that I have no control. On the other hand, where I think the doctrine can be comforting is that when things go terribly wrong, it is nice to believe that there is a God out there who has a purpose, and is in control, than one sitting up in heaven twiddling His thumbs waiting to see what we'll do next, so He can come up with a plan to get us out of the mess we got in ourselves. Romans 8:28 says, that "all things work together for good to those who love God -- to those who are "THE called" according to HIS purpose. Not just called, but "THE called". Since that includes me, I can know, that no matter what, it will turn out well for God's glory, which means it will turn out for my best good -- even if not always in the way that I envisioned.

The other area of comfort is that -- I don't trust ME at all!! I'm rebellious, proud, arrogant, and did I mention, I'm a control freak? But I trust GOD implicitly -- since I'm saved and know it was all HIM, I can trust the salvation, does that make any sense? In a sense, it is even more liberating when I preach the gospel, knowing I can't mess God up -- if the other person is to be saved, it is God that does it in His own timing. I just am "there", speaking God's words, and prayerfully planting a seed, which God can use in the time of His own choosing!! I like that.

Bottom line for all of these: It is comforting to me because I do NOT trust myself to do anything right -- I DO trust GOD to.

Cajunboy:::: Yes ma'am but just because God has the Omnipotent ability to see all the way into our future and is "all-knowing" has little to do with "our" ability to do or accomplish anything or us knowing any outcome of events. Imagine for a moment, God viewing everything above us and knowing our every move and everythought. How does that influence us just because HE has that ability? In our own conscious, and as we live out each day, we can still make decisions that affect change or not and God would have already know that.......but we did not!? Heck! now you've got me baffled??

[ParanoidAndroid]

Cajunboy:::: Oh! PA, Are you quite sure you understand the versus you are interpreting? 1Peter2:8- (And the Scriptures also say, "He (referring to Christ) is the stone that makes people stumble, the rock that will make them fall." (To prove this you have to read up a few versus to 1Peter2:4 "come to Christ, who is the living cornerstone of God's temple. He was rejected by the people, but he is precious to God who chose him.) BACK to 1Peter2:8 "They stumble because THEY DO NOT LISTEN TO GOD'S WORD OR OBEY IT, AND SO THEY MEET THE FATE THAT HAS BEEN PLANNED FOR THEM.

So yes! my brother, if you are saying God has a "fate" for those that do NOT obey him, you would be correct in your assumption. But remember.....ONLY GOD KNOWS WHICH OF HIS PEOPLE WILL REMAIN UNREPENTED. Here on earth , that is NOT the case. And only you and God know what's in your heart and mind, and if and when you're being tempted , are you making every effort to make straight the way of the LORD.

PA, you have made tremendous advances in your learning since I've been observing you....but now is the time to allow your life to be totally consumed by God, and FULLY TRUST HIM and the fact that HE has made you and I these promises. You and I will only be a very short time here to share our minds and heart on this earth, and God wants you to be a part of HIS salvation for mankind.....DO YOU SEE THIS YET? I do!

Also, I would ask you to post the scripts/versus on the 4 leads you refer to in Exodus as I would also like to review your findings???

Blessings

Cajun

Hi Cajun,

Yes, I'm pretty sure I understand the verses. 1 Peter 2:8 - " They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do." Mine is a slightly different version than yours by the look of it (I'm using the ESV here). I agree with your statement that only God knows the fate of those who are saved or unsaved. We on earth do not, and we cannot know. And everything we do seems to have its own consequences. This is what theologians such as Al Stewart called "Real Will". It is not free, but it is real. However, our fates are chosen for us already. The Bible is clear that God chooses us, not us choosing God. "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one." (Romans 3:10-12). The Bible is clear that the only way anyone could turn to God is if God works in their heart to do so.

As to the passages where God hardens Pharaoh's heart -

The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. (Exodus 4:1)

But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt, he will not listen to you. (7:3-4)

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses. (9:12)

Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them (10:1)

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go. (10:20)

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he was not willing to let them go. (10:27)

Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go out of his country. (11:10)

And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them. (14:4)

The LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, so that he pursued the Israelites, who were marching out boldly. (14:8)

I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they will go in after them. And I will gain glory through Pharaoh and all his army, through his chariots and his horsemen. (14:17)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There are also a few passages (three) where it says that Pharaoh hardened his own heart (as I said). Exodus 8:15,32. 9:34.

Do you have those verses that referred to man's will? Thanks

~ PA

Edited September 1, 2007 by ParanoidAndroid

[ParanoidAndroid]

As an aside, if we were having this discussion 300 years ago and anyone mentioned the term "free will", you'd get blank stares and people would say "What? What is this free will of which you speak". It wasn't until the 18th Century that the idea of free will was first thought up. Before this time, everyone who believed in God believed in his divine control of the world and everything in it. They had no problem with predestination, and it wasn't until some "freethinkers" (I use the term in quotes because I think freethinkers are greater slaves than anyone else and far from free, though they think by rejecting God that they are) stood up and decided that they weren't going to have an omnipotent God control their destiny.

[ParanoidAndroid]

Sorry for the triple post, but I just wanted to share one final thought with you all. I was told a story once by someone I know who advocated a form of limited free will. He likened our lives to being on a conveyor belt. We start off at the beginning and our life slowly moves towards its destination. God starts us all off on one of two conveyor belts - one leading to heaven, the other leading to hell. God knows beforehand which you are on, though we do not. On this belt, we have the free will to do whatever we want. Those who have been destined for salvation will undoubtedly find God while on their conveyor belt. Those destined for destruction will not. There is the free will to move on this belt wherever you want, do whatever you want. But you cannot get off that conveyor belt.

I've found it to be an interesting analogy. It does answer some questions of the predestination/free will debate, though not all.

Just a few thoughts to consider.

~ PA

[MeCajunboy]

Cajunboy:::: Oh! PA, Are you quite sure you understand the versus you are interpreting? 1Peter2:8- (And the Scriptures also say, "He (referring to Christ) is the stone that makes people stumble, the rock that will make them fall." (To prove this you have to read up a few versus to 1Peter2:4 "come to Christ, who is the living cornerstone of God's temple. He was rejected by the people, but he is precious to God who chose him.) BACK to 1Peter2:8 "They stumble because THEY DO NOT LISTEN TO GOD'S WORD OR OBEY IT, AND SO THEY MEET THE FATE THAT HAS BEEN PLANNED FOR THEM.

So yes! my brother, if you are saying God has a "fate" for those that do NOT obey him, you would be correct in your assumption. But remember.....ONLY GOD KNOWS WHICH OF HIS PEOPLE WILL REMAIN UNREPENTED. Here on earth , that is NOT the case. And only you and God know what's in your heart and mind, and if and when you're being tempted , are you making every effort to make straight the way of the LORD.

PA, you have made tremendous advances in your learning since I've been observing you....but now is the time to allow your life to be totally consumed by God, and FULLY TRUST HIM and the fact that HE has made you and I these promises. You and I will only be a very short time here to share our minds and heart on this earth, and God wants you to be a part of HIS salvation for mankind.....DO YOU SEE THIS YET? I do!

Also, I would ask you to post the scripts/versus on the 4 leads you refer to in Exodus as I would also like to review your findings???

Blessings

Cajun

Hi Cajun,

Yes, I'm pretty sure I understand the verses. 1 Peter 2:8 - " They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do." Mine is a slightly different version than yours by the look of it (I'm using the ESV here). I agree with your statement that only God knows the fate of those who are saved or unsaved. We on earth do not, and we cannot know. And everything we do seems to have its own consequences. This is what theologians such as Al Stewart called "Real Will". It is not free, but it is real. However, our fates are chosen for us already. The Bible is clear that God chooses us, not us choosing God. "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one." (Romans 3:10-12). The Bible is clear that the only way anyone could turn to God is if God works in their heart to do so.

As to the passages where God hardens Pharaoh's heart -

The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. (Exodus 4:1)

But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt, he will not listen to you. (7:3-4)

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses. (9:12)

Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them (10:1)

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go. (10:20)

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he was not willing to let them go. (10:27)

Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go out of his country. (11:10)

And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them. (14:4)

The LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, so that he pursued the Israelites, who were marching out boldly. (14:8)

I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they will go in after them. And I will gain glory through Pharaoh and all his army, through his chariots and his horsemen. (14:17)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There are also a few passages (three) where it says that Pharaoh hardened his own heart (as I said). Exodus 8:15,32. 9:34.

Do you have those verses that referred to man's will? Thanks

~ PA

Thanks PA, I saw the Exodus but I didn't notice the scrip/verse numbers and Exodus is quite long to search. Remember PA, God told us in the previous scripture I recently quoted and asked you to read, God tells us that HE will harden a man's heart , as if to say they may not have HIS gift of free will, and only a Christian or a man after God's own heart will retain that gift. If you need me to find the script/verse again I'd be happy to. You see PA, since God already knows a person fait and future and GOD knows if a man will not give in to God's will, God also allows the man what he "wills" .....a hardened heart! Makes plain sense to me. and that's probably the same pretense as to why a person who has "doubt" of God's intentions or existance, probably can't "discern" God within the "sinful" man's spirit. They are not endowed with the Spirit of God , so all the communication of the Spirit is broken......Unless the man repents!

[MeCajunboy]

Sorry for the triple post, but I just wanted to share one final thought with you all. I was told a story once by someone I know who advocated a form of limited free will. He likened our lives to being on a conveyor belt. We start off at the beginning and our life slowly moves towards its destination. God starts us all off on one of two conveyor belts - one leading to heaven, the other leading to hell. God knows beforehand which you are on, though we do not. On this belt, we have the free will to do whatever we want. Those who have been destined for salvation will undoubtedly find God while on their conveyor belt. Those destined for destruction will not. There is the free will to move on this belt wherever you want, do whatever you want. But you cannot get off that conveyor belt.

I've found it to be an interesting analogy. It does answer some questions of the predestination/free will debate, though not all.

Just a few thoughts to consider.

~ PA

Cajunboy :::Sorry, my friend....I totally disagree with the "conveyer belt" scenario ! There are far too many scriptures/versus that contradict that theory. What kind of God would HE be if HE just "pick and chose" whom he FELT was "Pro-God" or not. My friend if your friend's theory held true, I would be an example of one who should have been on the "conveyer to hell" but because I believe and trust God with all my heart, GOD pulled my out of the trenches and gutters of New Orleans, on drunk dirty night, and my life's never been the same since that night 40 years ago. Now , you might say, "But that was the plan God had for you!" True! But if it was, it was all for me to be but a good example and testamony of a lost soul gone GOOD!

And I'm guessing that you've got yourself convinced that YOU are not worthy and God doesn't have you on the conveyer to Heaven? And I"m here to tell you PA, that you're only making excuses so that you don't have to repent of what you think you enjoy! You may think that God wanted you "THAT" way and you have no alternative....but I was once where you are in my mind....and it all change, on that blessed night. I only remember, just before the transition happened , drowning in my drunkened tears and laying face down on the sidewalk of a "beerstinking" avenue., of which there are a lot of them there....that and the strong urine smell. I'll never forget that gut-wrenching night that I was totally converted. So , you go ahead and allow satan to continue deceiving you, it is your decision! But I will continue praying for you and the millions of others that share the same deception!

blessings