Survey for Atheists

[Grungekid]

I think you need to do some research on the subject before blindly dismissing it. You will find that of the supposed divine characteristics of Jesus, none are very unique. And I don't appreciate you implying that because I don't care about your particular interpretation, that I am "unknowledgable" about Christianity in general. You seem bound and determined to include personal attacks in each of your responses.

Prove that. The similarities are not many, cw. You keep saying they are, yet you can't even give any examples that hold up.

I'm sure Atheism is also to blame for the things that go bump in the night. Are you seriously saying that anyone who is truely religious is incapable of evil acts?

All I wanted to make note of, that you at first seemed to deny, is that religious folk are in no way ethically inferior to atheists, and I think I have illustrated that point at last.

I will not consider my argument refuted because you have not refuted it. But I will let it go because Pascal's wager is one of the weakest possible arguments you could have possibly made, so I do understand if you would like to sweep it under the rug.

Lol, no I wouldn't, but you would, wouldn't you?

Pascal's Wager is a very strong argument. You may not like it, but it is really quite reasonable. In fact, those with degrees in philosophical thinking could tell you so. I look back at your points, and they don't make very much sense to me. How is it in any way 'immoral'? I don't think you even used that word in context. The Wager is very positive. It simply takes into account two different ideas, and weighs the possibillity of both. It's very fair, actually. Truthfully, it gives a moral reason to believe, and I think that perturbs atheist thinkers. If theism according to Christianity is indeed true, then I can at best expect to go to Heaven for believing. If it isn't, then I get the same reward everyone else does, even if I believe. If you are right, then it really doesn't matter because it doesn't increase your standing in an afterlife. Those are just the factual suggestions of either theory. When you try to bring other religions into the mix, then it still doesn't change anything significantly. Most religions don't have punishment in the afterlife, aside from Zoroastrianism and Islam.

Big Bang vs. Creationism is a side argument that has no bearing on the point at hand. The topic is in regards to the basis of understand that all scientific advancement is founded on. That basis is a set of unchanging natural laws.

Perfect, then the Big Bang contradicts those laws and we have our conclusion.

If it were to be found that this basis is not correct and that there were forces that existed that could skirt these laws...the basis for science, as well as all that has been founded upon that basis, would instantly crumble.

You misunderstand how it works. The natural world exists, there is no argument against that. We are only speculating whether or not there is something beyond it, and whether or not it can effect human life. If it can, with humans and our abstract side of reallity, then I don't see how that negates science. We still have the natural world, and it still effects us in the same way.

By your own definition though, this force (God) could never be proven of disproven in an objective, empirical way. Therefore God must be taken on faith...as also required for belief in the Tooth Fairy, Santa Claus, and the monster living in my dryer that continues to steal my socks.

Look, this arguments falls to a basic form of reasoning I call infinite skepticism. Nothing can be proven 100%. I suggest you look into works on precursive faith and epistemology, then you'll know why I don't need to bring you a physical being to believe in. Also, my God can be proven in an empirical way: He talks to those willing to hear Him. I know, I know, personal experience, you say, but that is what empirical evidence really is, in any event. It's just our experience.

They may be real to the person it happened to, but this again goes back to there being no truth, only perception. There are those out there that swear to have had contact with ghosts...and some that swear to have been abducted by aliens. Does this mean that I should accept that aliens and ghosts are real because the experience was real to that person? Hardly. It may be true to them but until hard, empirical evidence is provided...I will continue to look at the possibility of God in the same skeptical light as aliens and ghosts. Amusingly, there has been more evidence provided (however dubious and open to interpretation it may be) that ghosts/aliens exist than evidence for the existence of God...but I digress.

There are actually more people who claim to have experience with God than those other two subjects, atheists just like the idea of aliens because of their precious mathematical probabillities. Perspectivalism is also wrong. If you want to know more about that, then I'll tell you.

However contrived you consider an inate, godless "moral guide" to be, it does not change the fact that we are of high enough mental capacity to know that some things are wrong.

And how, might you say, do we just 'know' things are wrong? Explain to me how we can know these things? Why is it that people like you believe abortion is a lovely freedom, while I think it is a sick travesty, one that even a cyberpunk/transhumanist would shake a finger at? Without God, I suppose we can have similar inklings, but those ideas aren't and never will be 'real'.

I, on the other hand, have the view that there is no God and that the fact that there is a moral code that keeps mankind from killing eachother is in itself proof that our "built in moral code" is real. You would no doubt attribute this to free-will and sin while I would consider this evidence that we are in fact animals who are perhaps not as evolved yet as we claim to be. That is to say that we often times "relapse" into our primitive mindset of brutality and survival of the fittest. I don't think there is much to say about this particular point other than we completely disagree. We are looking at the same thing from two entirely different directions. The only thing we can really agree upon is that there is evil done every moment of everyday on this planet.

How is that proof that it is real? Such a large degree of people disregard it and nothing happens to them. Just because some adhere to it, does not make it true. You say so yourself. I don't contribute all sin to free will, we are just human. We make mistakes, we die, and sometimes we do act in ways unhelpful because we want to. But that is something we won't evolve out of, and if that is all you think of what you are; a meaningless evolutionary accident, then it just reveals the lack of humanity present in your worldview.

You just need to get real. If there is no God, we all die, nothing can stop it, it doesn't make much difference how or why, we can all expect a whole lot of nothing. The only reason we worry about right and wrong, happiness and truth, is because nature played a cruel trick and we were, by completely accidental processes, given faculties to percieve such illusions.

I agree that Plato's Cave is real, but not from a religious perspective...only from a knowledge perspective (which is how he intended it originally). At the risk of sounding anecdotal myself, I "function" quite well without any need for superstition. Again, I appreciate your attempt at describing me...but again...you know nothing of me. I was raised in a Christian household and never found any need to seek a God...sure there were times when I wondered about God as a child, but as the bible says: "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things."

All that is is an insult. You assert that religion cannot quallify in any way as truth, and you relegate it to child's thought.

I would like you to note that Plato did not speak of knowledge, but of Truth. The Truth can set you free, and if only you really looked deeper into the Truth, you would see so much more.

It figures that you were raised in a Cristian household, that happens often to atheists, but you haven't learned anything if you thought that Jesus Christ was an only son.

In any case, you aren't experiencing anything, you don't know what Christ can do, and you don't realize all of the possibillities God brings, you don't even experience anything beyond what you see in front of you, because you only live half of your existence by neglecting the other side of reallity - that of the spiritual side.

[Guest brooklyneast05]

There are actually more people who claim to have experience with God than those other two subjects, atheists just like the idea of aliens because of their precious mathematical probabillities.

agreed!

and this is what makes the god experience completely useless as any form of evidence.

everywhere, in every religion, people have "experiences" with their own god. they can't all be real, can't all be experiencing the "one true god". how do we know which ones are and which ones aren't?

what makes your personal god experience real and others in other religions false?

Edited November 20, 2007 by brooklyneast05

[Grungekid]

There are actually more people who claim to have experience with God than those other two subjects, atheists just like the idea of aliens because of their precious mathematical probabillities.

agreed!

and this is what makes the god experience completely useless as any form of evidence.

everywhere, in every religion, people have "experiences" with their own god. they can't all be real, can't all be experiencing the "one true god". how do we know which ones are and which ones aren't?

what makes your personal god experience real and others in other religions false?

That's an interesting point, however, we could look into other religions and see how that is possible. For example, Bhuddists do things to their bodies and minds to get these 'experiences', and, consequently, their entire belief system is based upon achieving them. That often can be said of Hinduism and most other mysticism-centered religions. Muslims, on the other hand, just seem to do what they do, no matter what.

I know personally people from a wide variety of other religions, because they are now a part of my church's body, many said that they had 'experiences' before, but that didn't convince even them that the Bible wasn't true when they really discovered it. Tom Morris made an interesting point: many of these experiences are similar, and I think that maybe there is another element to these experiences, but that's going into fringe. I won't deny that it's possible that they did experience something 'real', but I don't think it may mean what they interpret it as, and I think that God is the only truly benevolent spiritual being that we need spend our time with, simply because He promises us something in the afterlife, and most other beliefs don't mention that key issue.

I understand this isn't totally discrediting all of those other claims, but that really isn't my goal. I don't feel I need to in order to firmly uphold a belief in not only a supernatural realm, but the Creator as revealed in the Bible.

[Guest]

"And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:" Mark 12:29

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:12

"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." Acts 2:21

what makes your personal god experience real and others in other religions false?

Religion?

Yes! Well Leave It And Get The BOOK

Ever Met The Lord Jesus Up Close And Personal?

Surrender And Get The Christ.

Ever Get Tired Of That Same Old Mirror Mirror On The Wall Love?

Forget Him And Know The One Who Is Love.

No Private Interpretation

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

2 Peter 1:12

Even The Heavens

The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

Psalms 19:1

IT IS WRITTEN

I Believe Therefore I Speak

We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

2 Corinthians 4:13

Of Jesus

Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

Hebrews 10:7

The Second Adam

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

1 Corinthians 15:45

Who Redeemed Us

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Galatians 3:13

Look

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:14-15

Believe

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

John 3:16-17

And Live

And Be Blessed Beloved

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Joe

[Guest brooklyneast05]

Religion?

Yes! Well Leave It And Get The BOOK

oh ok, yours is true because a book says it is. well, so do the others.

[Grungekid]

Religion?

Yes! Well Leave It And Get The BOOK

oh ok, yours is true because a book says it is. well, so do the others.

What others? Islam? Few religions have a central document, if you're looking at things classificationally. Zohar, Avesta, and the Qur'an are the only holy documents in history, off the top of my head, aside from the Bible. I suppose you could consider the Vedic doctrine a document, but it definitely isn't in use as a part of religious practice, anymore. The Zohar and Avesta are pretty much esoteric, and of the two, only the Avesta claims to have higher truth than the Bible. I'm pretty sure the Avesta is actually younger than the Old Testament, but I will have to look into that further.

In any case, that sardonic surmise was irrelevant to the point I was getting across; I believe the Bible because it makes much more sense, it has had a profoundly positive influence in the lives of many people I know, and - but this is just speculation - I can imagine that there have been more legitimate, explicitly Christian 'experiences' than others. All in all, my reasons for believing are perfectly rational, and if you don't believe that's fine, but you hardly have good grounds with which to argue.

[Guest]

oh ok, yours is true because a book says it is. well, so do the others.

Close Only Counts In Horse Shoes And Hand Grenades

Only One BOOK

Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

Hebrews 10:7

Only One FAITH

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Ephesians 2:8-9

Only One TRUTH

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 14:6

Only One LOVE

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:16

Only One LORD

Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Matthew 24:26-27

Only One WAY

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Matthew 7:13-15

See Jesus And Be Blessed Beloved

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Joe

[Guest brooklyneast05]

^ of course it would claim to be right. quoting the book is all good and dandy, but see i would have to accept that book as true to begin with. i don't believe that book to be true or right about everything, so why should i believe it's claims more than any other religions claims?

[Grungekid]

^ of course it would claim to be right. quoting the book is all good and dandy, but see i would have to accept that book as true to begin with. i don't believe that book to be true or right about everything, so why should i believe it's claims more than any other religions claims?

Well, you even got it wrong with evidentialism. You can't just disbelieve something and use that as an argument for its falsehood. You need proof.