GeneV Posted October 11, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 36 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 720 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/23/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/20/1947 Share Posted October 11, 2007 Ah let me have a shot at this since I am the one who posted said thread. When I said morals, I meant Christian morals. I doubt that there are very many on this forum who are pro-choice. Now, there may be some who would vote for a candidate that is pro-choice if it came down to the lesser of two evils, etc. basically, what i mean is that as a whole, this forum represents a group of people who are very similar in views on basic issues-abortion, homosexuality, etc. Our tolerance of these issues and the ideas we have on what should be done about them is waht separates us as well as our prioritization of the issues. I do know that my assertion has basically already been proven correct by looking at responding opinions, so obviously morality isn't nill when spoke of in the context I applied it. My goodness this is an excellent post, not that I have the answer to the question in the context as you put it, but I will definately look forward to the "comments" of the good members of WB Basically you are asking if Societal values are in line with Christian values, are they the same thing (not) and what is the yardstick for issues of moral and ethical conscience - do I have that right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forrestkc Posted October 11, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 114 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,015 Content Per Day: 0.60 Reputation: 8 Days Won: 1 Joined: 12/15/2005 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 11, 2007 forrestkc, When it comes down to moral issues there is always going to be certain ones that stand out in importance above the rest. For example, in Hitler's Germany there were alot of issues that faced the German people that could have been called moral issues. But there was no more important issue than stopping the destruction of innocent Jews. The great moral issue we face in America today is abortion. OC In your opinion. Others might say the greatest moral issue we face today is Climate Change and the world we will leave to our children. Others might say greed and indifference. Others may think that ignoring every other issue because of the abortion issue is a huge moral failing in our society. Others may agree with you on abortion, but disagree on how best to address it. It is still from man's perspective very subjective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted October 11, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted October 11, 2007 forrestkc, When it comes down to moral issues there is always going to be certain ones that stand out in importance above the rest. For example, in Hitler's Germany there were alot of issues that faced the German people that could have been called moral issues. But there was no more important issue than stopping the destruction of innocent Jews. The great moral issue we face in America today is abortion. When compared to that issue all others take a back seat. So whenever someone tries to make a case that they are moral because they support things like insurance for poor people and welfare programs in general all in the name of morality yet they are pro-abortion they are not really moral in my view. What they are really saying is, if you are fortunate enough to survive nine months in the womb without being murdered then we will take care of you at the expense of tax payers but if not that is your tough luck. All values are not equal. OC In your opinion. Others might say the greatest moral issue we face today is Climate Change and the world we will leave to our children. Others might say greed and indifference. Others may think that ignoring every other issue because of the abortion issue is a huge moral failing in our society. Others may agree with you on abortion, but disagree on how best to address it. It is still from "man's" perspective very subjective. forrestkc. From God's perspective there is nothing subjective when it comes to morality. The word is against the killing of the unborn. I did say, "that all values are not equal" but, I would like to point out that Climate Change is not a moral issue and most of the things you mentioned are not even my opinion but you sticking words in my mouth that I never insinuated at all. What do you say is our greatest "moral" issue today? Then tell me it's not subjective. But what is leading you the "world" or "God's" voice and influence on your life? Is God's voice subjective to you? OC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustinM Posted October 16, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 144 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,512 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 625 Days Won: 10 Joined: 04/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/07/1979 Share Posted October 16, 2007 Why don't we first address what is Morality? God seemed to define morality with His 10 Comandments. If we can base every moral question on those 10 laws, I'm sure we'd find a very objective answer. For instance, lets address the issue of stealing. "Thou shalt not steal." Now, without using the latest Harvard or Oxford Dictionary, that statement, to me, means, do not take what doesn't belong to you. To me, that means everything someone else possesses. Money, Property, Family. Income redistribution is immoral and violates that comandment. Whether someone earned that money fair and square is beside the point. That money belongs to that individual and if you want some of it, you have to earn it. God blesses people with wealth, so that they may use it to suit His needs. Some do not and lose it all eventually, whether in life, or death. Others honor that gift and use it to serve God. "Thou Shalt not Kill." To me, that means killing someone for no moral reason. Self Defense of Property, Money and Family is a moral obligation of the head of the household. Our government uses war as a tool to protect its property, money and citizens. If the government misuses war, then the government will be held accountable by God, for misusing the authority He gave it. "Honor thy father and thy mother." To me, that means obey your parents, obey their wishes. If your parents are raising you in an ungodly manner, they will be held to account for that. But, you must obey them. "Thou Shalt not lie." Really, do we need to argue over what is, is? Truth is black and white, there's no grey area to truth. You are either completely honest, or completely dishonest. There's not partially honest or partially dishonest. Even the slightest hint of dishonesty will make the truth a lie. "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife or posessions." Don't be jealous if your neighbor has everything and you have nothing. Whether he has a wife that's drop dead gorgeous, or unimaginable wealth. It's his, God gave it to him, whatever he decides to do with it, is between him and God. "Thou shalt not have other gods before Me." Well, that tells me God wants to be number one in our life, anything that takes priority over that is an idol. Any thoughts anyone? Morality is not subjective when compared with His Law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustinM Posted October 19, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 144 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,512 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 625 Days Won: 10 Joined: 04/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/07/1979 Share Posted October 19, 2007 bump! Is the discussion over already? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
followerofjesus Posted October 23, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 31 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,013 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/08/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted October 23, 2007 Thats a very good analysis and description to me. Morality isn't objective to me. The holy spirit discerns what is morally right and wrong for us. I believe when a person is not walking in faith that discernment isn't always either. Its like if you walk outside the perimeter you do it at your own risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oh Hamburgers! Posted October 23, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,144 Content Per Day: 0.34 Reputation: 163 Days Won: 1 Joined: 02/02/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/05/1985 Share Posted October 23, 2007 Responding to the original question about morality being subjective, I agree that morality is 100% subjective when it comes to men. In fact, what is "moral" and what is "immoral" can change from day to day based on everyday situations, again when dealing with human perceptions. Obviously everyone has their "limits" and their "guidelines", but those lines sit in shifting sands. Now, asking if this is right is a completely different issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oh Hamburgers! Posted October 23, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 10 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,144 Content Per Day: 0.34 Reputation: 163 Days Won: 1 Joined: 02/02/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/05/1985 Share Posted October 23, 2007 Responding to the original question about morality being subjective, I agree that morality is 100% subjective when it comes to men. In fact, what is "moral" and what is "immoral" can change from day to day based on everyday situations, again when dealing with human perceptions. Obviously everyone has their "limits" and their "guidelines", but those lines sit in shifting sands. Now, asking if this is right is a completely different issue. Well, then let me ask you that right now Oh Hamburgers. Is it right? If not, what should we be guided by in your opinion? Personally, I don't think its 'right', but it is certainly unavoidable given mankind's limited knowledge, even with the bible. The bible tells us what is right and what is wrong, but it doesn't give much of a hierarchy to morality, at least not in specifics. For example, it is wrong to kill, and it is good to help others. But at what point could you justify killing another to save? Would you accept one death in order to save 10 people? 100 people? 1 million people? At some point for almost every situation, I would argue that it would be less morally 'bad', when you take into consideration all of the 'good' that is accomplished. Unfortunately, there aren't specific guidelines given to us for every situation, so that's where subjective morality comes in. Person A might justify the killing of 1 person to save 100, while person B might justify the killing of 1 person to save 10,000. Person C might never justify the killing of one person for other moral goods. The problem this brings about is which person is right? And that is almost impossible to answer completely and accurately, given our earthly understandings. The good news, is that the guidelines are still there, ie we know that killing is still wrong. The problem arises in questioning "how wrong is it?" and "at what point does the result of killing make it ok?" But I don't have the answers to that. (sorry for the graphic example, but I feel it helps clear things up) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
followerofjesus Posted October 24, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 31 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,013 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/08/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted October 24, 2007 The scripture does address the morality question. The ends do not justify the means. Killing one to save thousands is not acceptable for scripture. The scenario is unrealistic but the point is there. In this example the police would be able to throw everyone in jail without a trial until the suspect is found. The suspect found does not justify the injustice rendered to the innocent people whose lives are ruined by the actions of law enforcement. The fear mongering by the media and govt. agencies are a device being used to extend their agendas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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