S.A.Laffin Posted October 14, 2007 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 36 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted October 14, 2007 Lately I have been thinking about the whole eternal security thing and something hit me; can you really have eternal security if you cannot lose your salvation? Those who argue that we have eternal security say that once you are saved you are always saved. Opponents of this idea always bring up some example of someone who "becomes" a Christian and then "falls away." Those who are in favor of the preservation of the saints reply, "that person was never truly saved." And, it is with this answer I have decided that if you cannot loose your salvation you cannot be secure in your eternal state (you can not have eternal security). Following this logic, I cannot be assured of my salvation until I die and enter heaven. Why do I say this, because many people have thought that they became Christians only to have fallen away and been put in the category of "never really being saved." If this is true, how can I know that I am truly saved, well I can't, that is until I die. There is no way for me to know if I am "really saved" or if I only think that I am. However, If I can loose my salvation, I can be assured that I am saved right now, if I die right now I can be assured that I am going to heaven because I have not turned my back on God. If I can loose my salvation I can have eternal security. I can be eternally secure that if I remain in Christ I have salvation. What are your thoughts? This text was coppied from God Worshippers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Openly Curious Posted October 14, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 55 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,568 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 770 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted October 14, 2007 Lately I have been thinking about the whole eternal security thing and something hit me; can you really have eternal security if you cannot lose your salvation? Those who argue that we have eternal security say that once you are saved you are always saved. Opponents of this idea always bring up some example of someone who "becomes" a Christian and then "falls away." Those who are in favor of the preservation of the saints reply, "that person was never truly saved." And, it is with this answer I have decided that if you cannot loose your salvation you cannot be secure in your eternal state (you can not have eternal security). Following this logic, I cannot be assured of my salvation until I die and enter heaven. Why do I say this, because many people have thought that they became Christians only to have fallen away and been put in the category of "never really being saved." If this is true, how can I know that I am truly saved, well I can't, that is until I die. There is no way for me to know if I am "really saved" or if I only think that I am. However, If I can loose my salvation, I can be assured that I am saved right now, if I die right now I can be assured that I am going to heaven because I have not turned my back on God. If I can loose my salvation I can have eternal security. I can be eternally secure that if I remain in Christ I have salvation. What are your thoughts? This text was coppied from God Worshippers Absolutely Brillant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted October 14, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted October 14, 2007 Lately I have been thinking about the whole eternal security thing and something hit me; can you really have eternal security if you cannot lose your salvation? Those who argue that we have eternal security say that once you are saved you are always saved. Opponents of this idea always bring up some example of someone who "becomes" a Christian and then "falls away." Those who are in favor of the preservation of the saints reply, "that person was never truly saved." And, it is with this answer I have decided that if you cannot loose your salvation you cannot be secure in your eternal state (you can not have eternal security). Following this logic, I cannot be assured of my salvation until I die and enter heaven. Why do I say this, because many people have thought that they became Christians only to have fallen away and been put in the category of "never really being saved." If this is true, how can I know that I am truly saved, well I can't, that is until I die. There is no way for me to know if I am "really saved" or if I only think that I am. However, If I can loose my salvation, I can be assured that I am saved right now, if I die right now I can be assured that I am going to heaven because I have not turned my back on God. If I can loose my salvation I can have eternal security. I can be eternally secure that if I remain in Christ I have salvation. What are your thoughts? This text was coppied from God Worshippers The doctrine called Perseverance of the Saints says that once we are in Christ we are secure, and that all those who are in Christ will persevere until the end. Salvation is more than eternal security (fire insurance). It is a change of nature that enables us to experience life with God both now and into eternity. If one believes we can be saved, then walk away and lose it, they are essentially saying that the change of nature given at the point of salvation can be undone. "Endurance to the end" is a hallmark of true belief. OUr confidence rests in the fact that once we receive the new nature, we will persevere. According to the scenario you have painted above, one can only be secure moment to moment. Salvation is contingient. According to Perseverance of the Saints, salvation is unconditional, but one of its fruits will be perseverance. If that fruit is not eveident, one can question if it took place Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted October 14, 2007 Share Posted October 14, 2007 Following this logic, I cannot be assured of my salvation until I die and enter heaven. Why do I say this, because many people have thought that they became Christians only to have fallen away and been put in the category of "never really being saved." This is not wholly accurate. It is not true that someone who falls away is put in the category of never having been saved. Only those who demonstrate that while professing Christ, they continue to live in unrepentatly are seen as not having a genuine profession of faith in Christ. If a person professes Christ, but lives in sexual immorality, and rebuffs any correction and proves him/herself to be irretrievably consumed in sin, then it is assumed that such a person never truly surrendered to the Lord. The litmus test of a true Christian is a sincere desire to serve the Lord. Absent any demonstration of that, we have no reason to believe such a person was ever saved. There are many people who come to church on Sunday to get forgiven, fully intending to continue in sin. The Bible says in Proverbs 26 that the sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord. It is an abomination because a wicked person does not offer it in true repentance, but only as a means of salving their conscience. There is no provision in Scripture for such a person. People fall away for a variety of reasons, and we cannot just lump them altogether. Some people go through seasons of discouragement and anger/rebellion, but it done out of pain and we need to be patient and extend mercy and be the willing vessels that God can use to woo them back to Himself. God's grace is not for the righteous, for the person who lives perfectly all the time. Grace is for the fallen, for the ones who stumble in a sincere desire to serve the Lord. Grace is there for us when we fall to say, "I forgive you; let me pick you up and help you." We completely underestimate the patience and mercy of God. Nothing we do takes God by surprise. He knew when He saved us, just where and how we would sin. He knew when He saved us that we would screw up and let Him down and He saved us anyway. God is not like us. He does not throw us away when we mess up. He is a loving Father. No loving parent abandons their child when their child disappoints them. In fact, it makes them love their child more, not less. If this is true, how can I know that I am truly saved, well I can't, that is until I die. There is no way for me to know if I am "really saved" or if I only think that I am. Fortunately, the Bible provides us with a "know-so" salvation. How do I know I am saved? I don't have to rely on what I do or don't do to tell me I am saved. I can go to the Word of God: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (John 5:24) And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life: and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. (1 John 5:11-13) The above-referenced verses of Scripture tell me that I can know today, right now that I am saved. It is not based upon how I feel, or what I have done or not done. I have the Son of God in my heart, and I know that I am going to heaven and that is not based on the doctrine of eternal security, but based upon the words of Scripture. I have Jesus' promise that I have already passed from death to eternal life. I can be eternally secure that if I remain in Christ I have salvation. Salvation is not about me trying to actively remain in Christ. That makes salvation my doing, and not God's. If I am saved because I lived the right kind of life to ensure that I remain in Christ, salvation is then no longer a gift, but a reward. It is no longer based upon the work of the cross, but finds its ultimate fulfillment in me. That is not the gospel. The second glaring problem with the idea that I must seek to remain in Christ in order to be saved, is that I would never know if I have done enough to accomplish that. I would never know to my dying day if every sin was confessed, if every good deed was done perfectly enough to earn God's approval. God has an absolute standard of perfection, which possesses no margin for error. There are no varying degrees of "good enough." It is not enough to do a good deed, but it has be done perfectly, and no one can truly say that all of their deeds are good enough on that basis. When have you done enough, and how do you know that every deed was done to God's immovable, absolute standard of perfection? Those who try to earn their salvation by their deeds are the ones without assurance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted October 14, 2007 Share Posted October 14, 2007 Actually, his logic is pretty good. Any time I have seen a person claim to have been saved, who later falls away, or even renounces their salvation experience, the explaination given by those who believe in OSAS is that they were never really saved, but only thought they were. Looking at what S.A. Laffin said, you or I believe we are saved today, and if we hold to OSAS, we believe we can never lose our salvation. If any of us were to walk away, and wind up in blatant immorality, or renounce our former conversion, those who hold to OSAS would claim we were never saved. As such, since we don't know that down the road we won't turn away, and be one of those statistics, we have no eternal security. I agree with O.C. that his analogy is brilliant. The logic Laffin posted from the article fails to take one thing into account. Not one of us can see the heart of a person and measure at what point a person "loses" their salvation. To claim a person is no longer saved would require a degree of spiritual knowledge that only God possesses. How do you spot a person who has lost their salvation?? It's not like spotting a toupe`. The truth is, none of knows who has lost their salvation and are not in a position to make that judgement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.Laffin Posted October 14, 2007 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 36 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/14/2007 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 14, 2007 I would like to add something to this topic which I had not included. I do not believe that someone can "loose" their salvation. If I could loose it, I could also hold on to it. In this case it would based on my merit not on that of God. I do not believe that anyone will ever wake up and realize "I have lost my salvation." However, I do think that someone can renounce their salvation. An unsaved person can choose to reject the salvation offered by God, so why would God force someone who has tasted of the heavenly gift (Heb 6:4) to remain in relationship with him if that is not their desire? Therefore, I would claim that one cannot loose their salvation but they can renounce it. I would also claim that the only way I can truly have assurance of salvation is if I can renounce it. That being said, I am in no way saying that I can attain salvation by my merit. I hope that this clarifies somethings. God Worshippers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted October 15, 2007 Share Posted October 15, 2007 I agree with you Shiloh that none of us can make an absolute judgment who is saved and who is lost. All judgement is left up to Christ, but I have heard some who believe in OSAS say so and so wasn't really saved to begin with because of something they are doing. I think that is the point. I hear you, I don't think anyone can say, ordinarily that a person was never saved. It would be foolish to make such arbitrary judgments. However, I think it is fair to say that a person who claims Christ but has NEVER shown any fruit and continued to live in sin even after getting "saved," should have the authenticity of their profession challenged. That what I was trying to say in my original response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
backontrack Posted October 15, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 139 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,213 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 185 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/10/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted October 15, 2007 Following this logic, I cannot be assured of my salvation until I die and enter heaven. Why do I say this, because many people have thought that they became Christians only to have fallen away and been put in the category of "never really being saved." This is not wholly accurate. It is not true that someone who falls away is put in the category of never having been saved. Only those who demonstrate that while professing Christ, they continue to live in unrepentatly are seen as not having a genuine profession of faith in Christ. If a person professes Christ, but lives in sexual immorality, and rebuffs any correction and proves him/herself to be irretrievably consumed in sin, then it is assumed that such a person never truly surrendered to the Lord. The litmus test of a true Christian is a sincere desire to serve the Lord. Absent any demonstration of that, we have no reason to believe such a person was ever saved. There are many people who come to church on Sunday to get forgiven, fully intending to continue in sin. The Bible says in Proverbs 26 that the sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord. It is an abomination because a wicked person does not offer it in true repentance, but only as a means of salving their conscience. There is no provision in Scripture for such a person. People fall away for a variety of reasons, and we cannot just lump them altogether. Some people go through seasons of discouragement and anger/rebellion, but it done out of pain and we need to be patient and extend mercy and be the willing vessels that God can use to woo them back to Himself. God's grace is not for the righteous, for the person who lives perfectly all the time. Grace is for the fallen, for the ones who stumble in a sincere desire to serve the Lord. Grace is there for us when we fall to say, "I forgive you; let me pick you up and help you." We completely underestimate the patience and mercy of God. Nothing we do takes God by surprise. He knew when He saved us, just where and how we would sin. He knew when He saved us that we would screw up and let Him down and He saved us anyway. God is not like us. He does not throw us away when we mess up. He is a loving Father. No loving parent abandons their child when their child disappoints them. In fact, it makes them love their child more, not less. If this is true, how can I know that I am truly saved, well I can't, that is until I die. There is no way for me to know if I am "really saved" or if I only think that I am. Fortunately, the Bible provides us with a "know-so" salvation. How do I know I am saved? I don't have to rely on what I do or don't do to tell me I am saved. I can go to the Word of God: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (John 5:24) And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life: and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. (1 John 5:11-13) The above-referenced verses of Scripture tell me that I can know today, right now that I am saved. It is not based upon how I feel, or what I have done or not done. I have the Son of God in my heart, and I know that I am going to heaven and that is not based on the doctrine of eternal security, but based upon the words of Scripture. I have Jesus' promise that I have already passed from death to eternal life. I can be eternally secure that if I remain in Christ I have salvation. Salvation is not about me trying to actively remain in Christ. That makes salvation my doing, and not God's. If I am saved because I lived the right kind of life to ensure that I remain in Christ, salvation is then no longer a gift, but a reward. It is no longer based upon the work of the cross, but finds its ultimate fulfillment in me. That is not the gospel. The second glaring problem with the idea that I must seek to remain in Christ in order to be saved, is that I would never know if I have done enough to accomplish that. I would never know to my dying day if every sin was confessed, if every good deed was done perfectly enough to earn God's approval. God has an absolute standard of perfection, which possesses no margin for error. There are no varying degrees of "good enough." It is not enough to do a good deed, but it has be done perfectly, and no one can truly say that all of their deeds are good enough on that basis. When have you done enough, and how do you know that every deed was done to God's immovable, absolute standard of perfection? Those who try to earn their salvation by their deeds are the ones without assurance. As for me their are many times during the week I do not fill saved even daily! God says that all our works are as filthy rags so in this we cannot work our way to heaven. So no matter what I do or attempt to do as I would consider Good it is never enough to save my soul. The only way that I am reassured that I am saved is I believe that Jesus is the Son of God and died and rose again so I would not have to die eternally. Not by works lest anyone boast! We are to live a holy life and follow Gods guidelines best we can but if we don't we must ask forgiveness always. This is a very difficult subject because of all the different beliefs. Just ask a Catholic or like you said a Baptist. So I just refer to my commitment to Christ and do not rely on my works. He is my rock and boy I am glad I do not enter heaven by my works! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exrockstar Posted October 15, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 34 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,673 Content Per Day: 0.27 Reputation: 111 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/21/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted October 15, 2007 I have decided that if you cannot loose your salvation you cannot be secure in your eternal state (you can not have eternal security). Following this logic, I cannot be assured of my salvation until I die and enter heaven. Why do I say this, because many people have thought that they became Christians only to have fallen away and been put in the category of "never really being saved." If this is true, how can I know that I am truly saved, well I can't, that is until I die. There is no way for me to know if I am "really saved" or if I only think that I am. However, If I can loose my salvation, I can be assured that I am saved right now, if I die right now I can be assured that I am going to heaven because I have not turned my back on God. If I can loose my salvation I can have eternal security. I can be eternally secure that if I remain in Christ I have salvation. What are your thoughts? This text was coppied from God Worshippers first thing i notice about your statement is the amount of "I's" you have. that is what fascinates me about those pastors, ministers, followers etc that have turned salvation BASED ON morality. Yes we are to "remain" and asked to advance. But let's get over ourselves when we think it's about us. Eph 2: 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.Laffin Posted October 15, 2007 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 36 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/14/2007 Status: Offline Author Share Posted October 15, 2007 I would like to clarify that this topic is going down the wrong path. If you look carefully at the topic starter, this is not leading to the argument of whether or not a person can loose their salvation. Maybe the title was misleading. The issue I was bringing up was concerning the contradiction of "once saved always saved" and "assurance of salvation." My claim is that the two cannot go together. Either you accept that once a person is saved they are always saved or you accept that a person can be assured of their salvation. To note on the usage of "I," in no way am I trying to push a salvation based upon anything I do. This critique along with all those debating over whether or not salvation can be lost (while important and useful) are missing the point (probably due to my lack of clarity, not their lack of thinking). If that were the point, I think this would belong on the "controversial" board. I posted on the "Doctrinal Questions" board because I am discussing the doctrines of "preservation of the saints" and "assurance of salvation." It appears to be a contradiction to say that a person can be both assured of salvation and hold to a preservation of the saints doctrine, at least from a humanly logic. Hopefully this gets things back on the right track. God Worshippers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts