WayneB Posted October 17, 2007 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 232 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 7,261 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 79 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/19/1959 Share Posted October 17, 2007 Ive always encouraged people to be Berean and compare what anyone says to scripture. Im curious what you would do, Wayne, if "Sue" came to you and said "John Doe is a great preacher and prophet, I just adore him", and you knew that John Doe had a prophecy that in the year 2000, the US would cease to exist because yellowstone volcano would erupt. You know his prophecy is proven to be false. You know we are to reject him. How do you tell "Sue" that this preacher/ prophet she adores is not what he claims to be? How would you encourage her to do as scripture says and reject the false prophet? That would be between me and Sue...two close friends who are mature in the FAITH. Been there, done that. ...and to be honest, I have had some close friends return the favor. Regardless, I would not feel compelled to adjust my focus off the GOAL and onto exposing this "false prophet" publically on websites, in my teaching and the likes. I have been teaching in the jails for 7 years and honestly, I may use "examples" of false minsitries in my teaching backed up with Scripture but those "examples" are not the focus of my teaching and rarely used. Like I asked, with ALL the deception integrated in the early church, how often did Paul call names? Did he do so privately? Probably. Did he do so in his public letters? Not much...his foucs was on the TRUTH. The TRUTH is the best LIGHT to expose the lies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsth Posted October 17, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 297 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 5,586 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 193 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/09/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted October 17, 2007 Regardless, I would not feel compelled to adjust my focus off the GOAL and onto exposing this "false prophet" publically on websites, in my teaching and the likes. Dear wayne, I'm not trying to be contentious, really, but I would have to ask "why not"? If this false prophet were fleecing the flock as a whole, then you would only privately tell some, and not share with others? Again, I go back to the wolf in sheep's clothing question. Do we take the wool off the wolf or leave him in disquise? In His Love, Suzanne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneB Posted October 17, 2007 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 232 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 7,261 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 79 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/19/1959 Share Posted October 17, 2007 So why didn't Paul name names? Rather, we are taught what signs to look for. We are encouraged to TRUST God, rely on the leading of the Holy Spirit...to immerse ourselves in the Word of God. We are taught what to look out for rather than who to look out for. 14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works: 15 Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words. 2 Tim 4:14-15 (KJV) 10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia. 11 Only Luke is with me 2 Tim 4:10-11 (KJV) This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes 2 Tim 1:15 (KJV) Paul named names and warned us what to look for. BUT only FOUR times...with all the pagans, judaizers, gnostics in the early church, ONLY four times?? That was my point. In an early post, I wrote... We better be careful when making a judgement regarding another brother's motives. [Matthew 7:2] Too often a person is wrongly branded as a false prophet, I think, out of a sincere concern that even the elect will possibly be misled. [Matthew 24:24] Regardless, we don't need to focus on the individual and personality so much but rather focus on the message and why it is false. ALL prophetic utterances should be measured against the Word of God. [2 Timothy 3:16] Very rarely did Jesus call out individuals by name (not the same as confronting) and brother Paul only did it on two occasions that I recall. Does that mean, with all the gnostics, judaizers and pagans who had infiltrated the early church, that there were just a handful of false prophets and deceivers? Why were they not all called out by name? Maybe we need to expose the falseness of the message as it relates and is measured against the Word of God. I do believe strongly that we need to expose false teaching! I do believe strongly that we need to be immersed in the Word of God so that we are not taken in with heretical doctrines! I do not believe it is appropriate or even necessary to sit around in fellowship and focus on personalities. I do not need to know the liar to know what is a lie. Oaky...I was off by two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsth Posted October 17, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 297 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 5,586 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 193 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/09/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted October 17, 2007 Does that mean, with all the gnostics, judaizers and pagans who had infiltrated the early church, that there were just a handful of false prophets and deceivers? Why were they not all called out by name? Maybe we need to expose the falseness of the message as it relates and is measured against the Word of God. Keep in mind that Paul was telling of things that were to come at the latter days. So, this apostasy was not in full force yet. But, he was very clearly warning about what was going to come. I don't doubt for a second that Paul would have been one to name them, were he going to be there when these things became rampant. But he tells them/us, that he won't be there. It will be AFTER he is gone. Thus, the urgency of his warning. Acts 20:27 For I have not hesitated to proclaim to you the whole will of God. 28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. 29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. 31 So be on your guard! In His Love, Suzanne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsth Posted October 17, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 297 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 5,586 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 193 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/09/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted October 17, 2007 Very rarely did Jesus call out individuals by name You're right there. He actually went a step further and called out WHOLE groups! Which was even riskier and troublesome. Luke 12:1 Meanwhile, when a crowd of many thousands had gathered, so that they were trampling on one another, Jesus began to speak first to his disciples, saying: "Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you: Mt 22:18 - Show Context But Jesus, knowing their evil intent, said, "You hypocrites, why are you trying to trap me? Mt 23:13 - Show Context "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. Mt 23:15 - Show Context "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are. Mt 23:23 - Show Context "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. Mt 23:25 - Show Context "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Mt 23:27 - Show Context "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. Mt 23:29 - Show Context "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. (And that's some of the MANY times they were called out) In His Love, Suzanne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneB Posted October 17, 2007 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 232 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 7,261 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 79 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/19/1959 Share Posted October 17, 2007 Regardless, I would not feel compelled to adjust my focus off the GOAL and onto exposing this "false prophet" publically on websites, in my teaching and the likes. Dear wayne, I'm not trying to be contentious, really, but I would have to ask "why not"? If this false prophet were fleecing the flock as a whole, then you would only privately tell some, and not share with others? Again, I go back to the wolf in sheep's clothing question. Do we take the wool off the wolf or leave him in disquise? In His Love, Suzanne There's the problem Suzanne. We are NOT omniscient, omnipresent nor omnipotent. We (at least I am) are subject to error. There is a BIG difference between a exposing an obvious wolf, such as a false Christ, and someone who you perceive to be in error. I, as you, consider prophecy to include teaching how the Word of God relates to current situations and not just restricted to upcoming events. So anyone who "teaches" how God's word applies to today's events can be consider a "prophet"...and many of them teach wrongly, in my opinion. They do so out of ignorance or bad motives...but what does it matter? Isn't God sovereign? Didn't He say that NOTHING will separate us from His love? Regardless, how much time and space did Paul spend on "exposing" Alexander the coppersmith, Demas, Phygellus and Hermogenes? And were they "false teachers"? NO...they were people who had "deserted" him or had done him harm. They were "personal" statements to his young protege, Timothy. Rather than look at Paul's personal remarks, look at what he wrote in his 1st letter to Timothy... without naming names. 1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4 For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer. 6 If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed. 7 Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives' tales; rather, train yourself to be godly. 8 For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come. 9 This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance 10 (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe. 11 Command and teach these things. 12 Don't let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in speech, in life, in love, in faith and in purity. 13 Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to preaching and to teaching. 14 Do not neglect your gift, which was given you through a prophetic message when the body of elders laid their hands on you. 15 Be diligent in these matters; give yourself wholly to them, so that everyone may see your progress. 16 Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers. Sounds like good advice from the mentor to the protege... all without naming names. You're not being contentious by asking at all. My answer is simple... because if we teach TRUTH as Paul commnaded Timothy, the false "teachers" will be exposed by the LIGHT of God's Word. We don't need to name names. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneB Posted October 17, 2007 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 232 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 7,261 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 79 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/19/1959 Share Posted October 17, 2007 Very rarely did Jesus call out individuals by name You're right there. He actually went a step further and called out WHOLE groups! Which was even riskier and troublesome. Luke 12:1 Meanwhile, when a crowd of many thousands had gathered, so that they were trampling on one another, Jesus began to speak first to his disciples, saying: "Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you: Mt 22:18 - Show Context But Jesus, knowing their evil intent, said, "You hypocrites, why are you trying to trap me? Mt 23:13 - Show Context "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. Mt 23:15 - Show Context "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are. Mt 23:23 - Show Context "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. Mt 23:25 - Show Context "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Mt 23:27 - Show Context "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. Mt 23:29 - Show Context "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. (And that's some of the MANY times they were called out) In His Love, Suzanne ...and in many cases He was speaking to them and at them collectively. Is it the same? I don't believe it is at all... apples and oranges. We're not talking "risk" or "trouble" here. We aren't talking generalities but rather speciifcs...specific names and ministries. If you want to accept true risk and trouble, then you should go to each ministry you find fault with and confront them personally, armed with the Word of God as the Holy Spirit leads you. You say that's not practical but I say it is the only way to ensure you don't make a mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneB Posted October 17, 2007 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 232 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 7,261 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 79 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/19/1959 Share Posted October 17, 2007 [Keep in mind that Paul was telling of things that were to come at the latter days. So, this apostasy was not in full force yet. That's not true Suzanne. Paul was dealing with them at the very start. I think the Book of Acts pretty much shows that. So who were these judaizers who preached circumcism? What were their names? Maybe they were too numerous so Paul focused on teaching TRUTH rather than calling out names? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsth Posted October 17, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 297 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 5,586 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 193 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/09/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted October 17, 2007 [Keep in mind that Paul was telling of things that were to come at the latter days. So, this apostasy was not in full force yet. That's not true Suzanne. Paul was dealing with them at the very start. I think the Book of Acts pretty much shows that. So who were these judaizers who preached circumcism? What were their names? Maybe they were too numerous so Paul focused on teaching TRUTH rather than calling out names? Did you read the verse I posted under the comment? The verse from Acts 20? He was clearly speaking of something that was a future event. In His Love, Suzanne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneB Posted October 17, 2007 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 232 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 7,261 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 79 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/19/1959 Share Posted October 17, 2007 [Keep in mind that Paul was telling of things that were to come at the latter days. So, this apostasy was not in full force yet. That's not true Suzanne. Paul was dealing with them at the very start. I think the Book of Acts pretty much shows that. So who were these judaizers who preached circumcism? What were their names? Maybe they were too numerous so Paul focused on teaching TRUTH rather than calling out names? Did you read the verse I posted under the comment? The verse from Acts 20? He was clearly speaking of something that was a future event. In His Love, Suzanne Yes...that was one verse and agree with you. What about the rest of the Book of Acts and all the letters Paul wrote? So I ask again, name one judaizer among the many who preached circumcism? Who was it? We need names...or do we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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