Guest shiloh357 Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 I'm thankful I'm not the judge. But if one knows the true Sabbath is the 7th day, why on earth would they not want to keep it, and keep another day of their own choosing, just because it's popular and convenient? The issue I am raising is not about when the Sabbath is. Everyone knows the biblical Sabbath is from Fri evening to Sat. evening. The issue is whether or not it is binding on Christians today. If someone does not believe it is binding, are they true follower of Jesus? Are still a true Christian even if they simply go to church on Sunday? Are you saying there is no Sabbath day anymore? Or are you saying we can pick whatever day we want, rather than observing the day God said to? Stop dancing around the question and answer it. Can a person be a true Christian even if they do not keep the Sabbath? What will be eternal consequences of a person who dies without belieiving in keeping the Sabbath? Can a person not keep the Sabbath and still go to heaven? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 So a person who does not keep the Sabbath day does not really love God? The whole Church is living in trangression and sin because they don't keep the Sabbath on Saturday? This scriputre comes to mind... 1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. The word Law is translated from the Hebrew Torah...which means "teaching," "instruction," or "law." With this in mind....we can better understand this scripture ..... Sin is the treansgression of Torah...God's teaching. His instruction. His Law. Man made Sunday the new day of worship over and above God's 7th day Sabbath. That would be a transgression of Torah wouldn't it? So can a person be true follower of Christ but not keep the Sabbath? Will a person go to hell for not keeping the Sabbath? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilgrim7 Posted November 10, 2007 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 635 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/07/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted November 10, 2007 Brother Shiloh, QUOTE(shiloh357 @ Nov 10 2007, 11:27 PM) So a person who does not keep the Sabbath day does not really love God? The whole Church is living in transgression and sin because they don't keep the Sabbath on Saturday? I would suggest that you read the Scriptures, for that is what they Scriptures say, 'If you love me keep you will keep my Commandments' for the wages for breaking them, transgressing them is death. There are many true christians who have been deceived by their leaders. I was one of them. Yet God tells us to repent and change when we learn the truth. It is not the whole church. I know many who keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus and most of them are Gentiles save by grace through faith with the law of God written in their hearts, not on tables of stone. It is true that it is most of the denominational churches. Why should that be a surprise to you. God warned us of a 'falling away'. If you need a previous example, just look to the Jewish church of Jesus time. The entire church structure, conservative Pharisees and liberal Sadducee's united in the rejection of the Messiah. Only a remnant of Israel remained true to God, but not the church structure. Yet they could not be convinced and continued on with their religion not knowing that God had cast them off as a nation. The surprising thing is that you find the concept so incredulous. Paul thought so too, until God was able to get his attention on the road to Damascus. He had to deal with the fact that the whole religious structure had gone into delusion save a remnant of true believers. He was for a time deceived, but when he saw the light, he changed. Yet he never kept the Pagan day of the Sun that all the idolaters were doing around him and he never taught anyone else to do so. That is an indisputable fact of Scripture and history. SmallCald, God says to keep it holy. Worship is a part of holiness. You can't separate worship and obedience from holiness, you may but God doesn't. God Bless, Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PreciousRubi Posted November 10, 2007 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 103 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/28/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted November 10, 2007 So a person who does not keep the Sabbath day does not really love God? The whole Church is living in trangression and sin because they don't keep the Sabbath on Saturday? This scriputre comes to mind... 1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. The word Law is translated from the Hebrew Torah...which means "teaching," "instruction," or "law." With this in mind....we can better understand this scripture ..... Sin is the treansgression of Torah...God's teaching. His instruction. His Law. Man made Sunday the new day of worship over and above God's 7th day Sabbath. That would be a transgression of Torah wouldn't it? So can a person be true follower of Christ but not keep the Sabbath? Will a person go to hell for not keeping the Sabbath? Romans 3:23 "for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" Fortunately, we have been justified by the blood of Yeshua. Does that mean it's ok to keep on sinning? 1 John 3:5 You know that He appeared to take away sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in Him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen Him or known Him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as He is righteous. Hebrews 10:26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Keepping in mind. What is sin?...Transgression of Torah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 So a person who does not keep the Sabbath day does not really love God? The whole Church is living in trangression and sin because they don't keep the Sabbath on Saturday? This scriputre comes to mind... 1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. The word Law is translated from the Hebrew Torah...which means "teaching," "instruction," or "law." With this in mind....we can better understand this scripture ..... Sin is the treansgression of Torah...God's teaching. His instruction. His Law. Man made Sunday the new day of worship over and above God's 7th day Sabbath. That would be a transgression of Torah wouldn't it? So can a person be true follower of Christ but not keep the Sabbath? Will a person go to hell for not keeping the Sabbath? Romans 3:23 "for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" Fortunately, we have been justified by the blood of Yeshua. Does that mean it's ok to keep on sinning? 1 John 3:5 You know that He appeared to take away sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in Him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen Him or known Him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as He is righteous. Hebrews 10:26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. Keepping in mind. What is sin?...Transgression of Torah. Just answer the question without the evasive tactics. Will a Christian who does not keep the Sabbath go to hell on the grounds that he/she is not Sabbath observant, YES OR NO? It is a very simple question. Just answer the question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 Brother Shiloh, QUOTE(shiloh357 @ Nov 10 2007, 11:27 PM) So a person who does not keep the Sabbath day does not really love God? The whole Church is living in transgression and sin because they don't keep the Sabbath on Saturday? I would suggest that you read the Scriptures, for that is what they Scriptures say, 'If you love me keep you will keep my Commandments' for the wages for breaking them, transgressing them is death. There are many true christians who have been deceived by their leaders. I was one of them. Yet God tells us to repent and change when we learn the truth. It is not the whole church. I know many who keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus and most of them are Gentiles save by grace through faith with the law of God written in their hearts, not on tables of stone. It is true that it is most of the denominational churches. Why should that be a surprise to you. God warned us of a 'falling away'. If you need a previous example, just look to the Jewish church of Jesus time. The entire church structure, conservative Pharisees and liberal Sadducee's united in the rejection of the Messiah. Only a remnant of Israel remained true to God, but not the church structure. Yet they could not be convinced and continued on with their religion not knowing that God had cast them off as a nation. The surprising thing is that you find the concept so incredulous. Paul thought so too, until God was able to get his attention on the road to Damascus. He had to deal with the fact that the whole religious structure had gone into delusion save a remnant of true believers. He was for a time deceived, but when he saw the light, he changed. Yet he never kept the Pagan day of the Sun that all the idolaters were doing around him and he never taught anyone else to do so. That is an indisputable fact of Scripture and history. Is Sabbath observance necessary for Salvation?? If I never keep the Sabbath and I reject your teachings on the Sabbath and continue with Sunday, what will be the eternal consequences? Will my rejection of Sabbath observance damn my soul? Are you saying that those who do not keep the Sabbath, are "fallen away from God?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celtic Warrior Posted November 10, 2007 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 123 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/13/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted November 10, 2007 Keepping in mind. What is sin?...Transgression of Torah. No, that is the deceitful practice of redefining Scripture to make it fit your desired meaning. I trust the Translators dedicated translation efforts, not some mans attempt to redefine words to make them fit his ideas of God's Word. I have at my disposal the Jewish Tanakh and the Jewish Publication Society Bible and one other Jewish translation. Would you care to send your 'redefined' meaning passages to me so I can check them against what JEWISH translators say they mean? And I am confident that their translations of HEBREW will be very close to the Christian translations. If you can get people to accept new meanings for old words, you've already brainwashed them to false doctrine. Sorry it doesn't wash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celtic Warrior Posted November 10, 2007 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 123 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/13/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted November 10, 2007 wings, There are some deeper issues involved here, but I won't go into that now. I hope this helps. If you wish specific answers, ask some more specific questions. I am a Sabbath keeper, not a Sunday keeper. I used to go to church on Sunday, but now I keep the Sabbath day Holy. Not surprising, and you most likely also believe yours is the one and only "True" church. Would it be asking too much to find out which "True" church it is? Do you also reject the Trinity and modern Christian Holidays (and perhaps also keep old Jewish Holy Day festivals). Perhaps you keep Kosher too? I am curious, but will understand if you don't answer. Paul also pointed out how circumcision was more important than the Sabbath (and that it wasn't considered "sabbath breaking" to circumcize on the Sabbath) and then went on to prove that circumcision is one of the Ritual Laws. Thereby showing that the Sabbath was included in the 'Laws" that no longer apply I used to be a Sabbatarian myself, until I managed to get past all the Proof-texting of my "True" Church. And now I attend Christian services on Sunday, and know that God NOWHERE commands Christians to keep the 4th Commandment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celtic Warrior Posted November 10, 2007 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 123 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/13/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted November 10, 2007 The surprising thing is that you find the concept so incredulous. Paul thought so too, until God was able to get his attention on the road to Damascus. He had to deal with the fact that the whole religious structure had gone into delusion save a remnant of true believers. He was for a time deceived, but when he saw the light, he changed. Yet he never kept the Pagan day of the Sun that all the idolaters were doing around him and he never taught anyone else to do so. That is an indisputable fact of Scripture and history. HARDLY, it is far from an "indisputable fact". It is highly disputable and in fact it is only "One True Church" movements who really have "proof from Scripture and History". As I said before, even the writings of the Early Church Fathers dispute what you say and some of them lived and learned under Paul and John. How much more "historical" do you need to get? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vickilynn Posted November 10, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 138 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,997 Content Per Day: 0.63 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/13/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted November 10, 2007 Is Sabbath observance necessary for Salvation?? Shalom Shiloh, I know that you are asking Pilgrim7 and what you're doing and that you are just trying to get this question down to the basics, but I wanted to make sure people know that one can observe the Biblical Sabbath and NOT believe it has anything to do with salvation. If I never keep the Sabbath...<snip> what will be the eternal consequences? There are no eternal "consequences" as pertaining to salvation, for one is not saved by keeping the Sabbath. However, I believe G-d's Word is clear that 7th day Sabbath is a wonderful gift to His people (Jews and Gentiles) and those that ignore the Scriptures to observe the Sabbath "as unto the L-rd" are indeed missing out on some great, rich lessons and blessings. Will my rejection of Sabbath observance damn my soul? No, Sabbath is not a requirement for salvation. But your question begs another question ... if you truly DO love G-d and want to serve Him and walk in His ways, why would you "reject" honoring and observing what G-d has blessed and called "holy'? Are you saying that those who do not keep the Sabbath, are "fallen away from God?" No, of course not, but the truth is, there is a closeness and fellowship that is unique to observing the Biblical Sabbath and that cannot be denied. I know for me, I want ALL of the the presence of G-d that I can possibly experience and when I was convicted about observing the 7th day Sabbath "as unto the L-rd", I did and do experience His presence and a sense of walking in His Word and ways that HE felt strong enough about that He put the Sabbath all through the Scriptures. Even though it is no longer a "command", it is still very much a valid part of His Word and part of a Believer's life if they will just reject the church's brainwashing on the subject and let the L-rd lead concerning this blessed gift from Him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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