What day of the week should we go to church on?

[Celtic Warrior]

pilgrim 7 I was thinking the same thing, that Jesus says Himself that He came to filfull the law and not to remove it. I think it is a matter of personal walk with what Jesus requires from each one of us. What we knew not yesterday we now know today.

The passage you all seem to be building on is this

Matthew 5:17 - 20 (ESV) 17

[Celtic Warrior]

Shalom CW,

And what does all that have to do with celebrating the Sabbath as G-d did BEFORE the Law of Moses?

In Genesis 2, G-d institutes the Sabbath and He has never rescinded it. The Sabbath is just that simple and it's something that cannot be argued against with all your arguments against the law.

1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done. 3So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation.

And WHERE in Scripture does it say that God celebrated Sabbath????? Especially before Moses??? Not where you're referencing to be sure!!! That only says what is says, and not what you're trying to read into it!!!

For that matter, it never says God returned to work on the 8th day either, so are we to assume that we need only work 6 days of our lives, rest on the seventh and then not worry beyond that? Do we follow God's example there? For that matter, He only quit the work of CREATING, for if He'd quit WORKING we wouldn't exist at all. And WHEN did God return to work? Bible Passages please!!!

The Bible NOWHERE says that God instituted the Sabbath at Creation, The first record of Him instituting a Sabbath (of ANY kind)(made FOR MAN, not vice versa) is AT SINAI, NOT BEFORE. He did indeed bless the Seventh day and made it holy at Creation (that is recorded, but not with any command to keep it separate or holy), and nowhere does the Bible ever say that He made it the Sabbath then (and even if you wish to interpret it that way, there is NO COMMAND or Recorded instance, outside of Sinai, of ANY command to "remember it and keep that day holy") Any other interpretation is reading INTO Scripture, not getting meaning OUT OF Scripture.

As I understand it, Exegesis is the proper way to study, in other words taking the meaning already there OUT, NOT reading something you wish to see INTO Scripture. If I'm wrong about that, please inform me and show me how you come to that study method.

There is no record of Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, (or Job, seems to me even the Devil was worried about his Righteous standing before God, yet no record of Job keeping Sabbath), etc ever being commanded to 'keep the Sabbath" or any record that they did. There is NO record of ANYONE being commanded to keep Sabbath outside of the Law of Moses, Old OR New Testament. Therefore, for me to assume they did would be "reading INTO Scripture what isn't there for me to find"

I'm also going to go out on a limb and admit that I'm not the best, most educated Bible SCHOLAR in the world (surprise, surprise) and I will be terribly disappointed to find out you've taken MY work without checking it against Scripture, but I also expect that you don't take "THEIR" word either. Scripture IS THE WORD and THE ONLY SOURCE. I "MIGHT" be wrong, but so might "THEY" who you've listened to. The truth is in GOD'S WORD, not mine, nor theirs, nor your favorite preachers.. I've done what I know how to find out true belief, and God Willing, Jesus Leading AND the Holy Spirit TEACHING, someday I will (hopefully) have it all down pat and completely understood. BUT, I will fight Legalists as far as the Spirit leads and until they PROVE their point (and not with PROOF TEXTING, but with God's Word as it was inspired--> been down that road once, won't go there again (I HOPE-GOD WILLING AND PROTECTING)). The Old Covenant was a stepping stone, a teacher, a guide, a road to JESUS-Our only true hope and saviour, nothing more. Legalists will convince you of all the hoops you have to jump through, all the "laws" you HAVE to obey, all the rules you have to follow, how you can "Earn points and wealth and health and prosperity" IF ONLY you will OBEY God. Well I'll tell you now that God's focus is on TOMORROWS world and your place in IT, not today, not on wealth and perishables or whatever focal point your friends wish to burden you with. God LOVES YOU no matter what you do, who you are, how able you are to "keep sabbath" or "avoid fornication" or ..... God loves US without reservation and condition. But I'm venturing into areas I'm not sure I'm qualified to speak on, so I will quit for now

Blessings

Oh yeah, and for that matter, why are you spelling God as G-d???? Are you so afraid of a LOVING GOD that you can't use His name???? Please explain!!! Are you Christian or bound up in the LAW???? There is only ONE blasphemy and that is against the Holy Spirit (and pretty much is total CONSCIOUS, INTENDED, WILLFUL rejection of God)

Edited November 9, 2007 by Celtic Warrior

[Pilgrim7]

God's love is no cloak for sin and disobedience. Sin hardens the heart to God's love and causes one to presume on it. The love of God changes a person, writes the law of God in the heart, giving one a love for His law. It would seem that many don't understand this concept.

The 'Born again' believer is a 'New Creation', old things have passed away, and all things have been made new. I realize that this is not taught today. As Paul said, 'there is no temptation that God doesn't make a way of escape for'. If God makes a way of escape, then one must blatantly ignore that escape to presumptuosly dispbey God.

2cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

The kingdom of God is not just about endless forgiveness for whiny christians, but righteousness and holiness for the Scriptures say that when we are weak, then we are strong. God's love changes a believer, not just feels sorry for him and excuses presumptuous disobedience.

Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as you have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity (before conversion); even so now (that you are converted) yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

6:20 For when you were the servants of sin, you were free from righteousness (had no righteousness).

6:21 What fruit had you then in those things whereof you are now ashamed ? for the end of those things is death.

6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, you have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life (Paul says the end result of holiness is everlasting life, a real honest holiness lived out in the life, not some mythical, pretended righteousness as taught today).

I understand why those who can't walk the walk would want to ignore God's commandments. There have always been those who wanted to do away with the Law of God, to cover their disobedience. The teaching that the Law of God was done away with was the 'doctrine of the Nicolaitans' which God hates. They also were anti-law.

You won't hear these things in church.

God Bless,

Dennis

[Celtic Warrior]

God's love is no cloak for sin and disobedience. Sin hardens the heart to God's love and causes one to presume on it. The love of God changes a person, writes the law of God in the heart, giving one a love for His law. It would seem that many don't understand this concept.

The 'Born again' believer is a 'New Creation', old things have passed away, and all things have been made new. I realize that this is not taught today. As Paul said, 'there is no temptation that God doesn't make a way of escape for'. If God makes a way of escape, then one must blatantly ignore that escape to presumptuosly dispbey God.

2cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

The kingdom of God is not just about endless forgiveness for whiny christians, but righteousness and holiness for the Scriptures say that when we are weak, then we are strong. God's love changes a believer, not just feels sorry for him and excuses presumptuous disobedience.

Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as you have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity (before conversion); even so now (that you are converted) yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

6:20 For when you were the servants of sin, you were free from righteousness (had no righteousness).

6:21 What fruit had you then in those things whereof you are now ashamed ? for the end of those things is death.

6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, you have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life (Paul says the end result of holiness is everlasting life, a real honest holiness lived out in the life, not some mythical, pretended righteousness as taught today).

I understand why those who can't walk the walk would want to ignore God's commandments. There have always been those who wanted to do away with the Law of God, to cover their disobedience. The teaching that the Law of God was done away with was the 'doctrine of the Nicolaitans' which God hates. They also were anti-law.

You won't hear these things in church.

God Bless,

Dennis

well now, I'm glad you are so wise as to know what 2 millenia of Bible Scholars have not known, ie the Sin of the Nicolaitans. In fact every word you have spoken is contrary to the Word of God, so please quit attacking the believers with your legalisms, misquotations and 'Old Time Religions". the only Old Time Religion I want is the one Jesus brought and it doesn't include the Law of Moses except on those point HE reapplied

Hebrews 8

Jesus, High Priest of a Better Covenant

1Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the

right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2a minister in the holy places, in the true tent

Edited November 9, 2007 by Celtic Warrior

[arvy]

Mark 2:27

And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Luke 6:5

And he said unto them, The Son of man is lord of the sabbath.

John 20:19

On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!"

20:26

A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!"

1 Corinthians 16:2

On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made.

They would have been put to death if they met on the last day of the week.

JB

And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath

arvy: We should note that the context of Jesus statement was made, not with any reference to the first day of the week and we know, if we believe in Creation by expression, that God, The Word was present at His own work of Creating. And if we believe the account of Creation was an actual period of six literal periods of the first weekly cycle of days ("evenings and mornings"), And if that weekly cycle was maintained from creation through the millinnia before there was a Jew. And through the millinia to the Era of Messiah (Creator become flesh) then it should not be difficult to realise that it was on the Sabbath Day which *Christ as *Creator *made the seventh day of the first week the Sabbath for the Man, Adam, and the woman, Eve, from whom all mankind sprang "from the beginning" of all Creation.

The challenge presented Jesus was not concerning which day, but how the Seventh day ought to be respected as pleasing to God, the Creator. Jesus was not speaking after the sense of man's right to alter what He Himself had set apart "sanctified" "for man" since His first week of Expressing Creation.

Luke 6:5

And he said unto them, The Son of man is lord of the sabbath.

arvy: The above statement is applicable to this vesre as well. I must understand here that Jesus, declaring Himself "the Son of Man" is refering to His personal power and authority over the Seventh Day Sabbath with rgard to how it ought to be respected as toward Himself, as both Creator and Messiah. Again no issue was entered into about an alteration from the seventh day to another day. such a concept is stretching the words of the context far beyond the intent of the discussion involved in the context.

John 20:19

On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!"

20:26

A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!"

arvy: This context is an accounting of events immediately following Jesus' resurrection. It is a shame to reach for these two verses describing events in relation the time following the resurrection as though they were intended for some proofs for the change from the Seventh Day Sabbath of the Weekly cycle in honor of the Creation, to the First day of the Weekly cycle in honor of Jesus' resurrection. traditional logic on this issue is simply not sustained by the decriptive context for the time, the place, and the purpose. THe reasonhere given is plainly apart from the concept of "worship" per se'. The context plainly states these followers of Jesus were gathered together behind closed doors "for FEAR OF THE JEWS." Worship was not of this contextual intent.

As for the first day of the week and the number of days that Jesus a continued to be present among His followers. The New Testament Scriptures inform us He was seen of over 500 persons after He was raised from the grave, for forty days, before He ascended back to heaven. And in all this period of days, was not ever any notable mention from Him of any transferance of His authority for respect toward the first day of the week to honor His resurrection. Neither is there any such mention by so much as one of His desciples, or apostles.

That there are historical accountings of certain gatherings with reference to the first day of the week. can not be denied. But that these accountings of events prove any warranted change of authority toward the first day of the week for any form of worship on that day in honor of Jesus resurrection is not thereby confirmed by the apostles in any of these contextual mentions. And I refer to all those scripture references which you have cited.

1 Corinthians 16:2

On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made.

They would have been put to death if they met on the last day of the week.

arvy: This context speaks nothing of a gathering for worship of honor relative to the first day of the week. The simple statement of instructionwas only that those believers, desirous to share their wealth with other less fortunate believers, were to set aside on that day perhaps wherever they might be, that hey might have their gifts prepared, collectively, ready to be received by Paul when He should pass their way. This context can not be valid support for any colletive congregational gathering for worship.

And the possibility that one might be put to death for respecting the last day of the week in honor of Creation should not be construed as any valid reason for dishonoring what the Creator has said to "Remember."

arvy: The total mentions of "the first day" of the week are 8 in the New Testament. Another one is in Acts I believe. In Acts we find Paul preaching on "the first day" on into the night. Eutichus falls asleep and falls from an upper level. "Next day" Paul leaves on foot. We should remember that in that time the day was measured by Jew and followers of Christ, as from sunset to sunset. sound logic then would have Paul possibly beginning his discourse at the latter end of the Seventh Day and continuing into the evening of the first day. The context tells us that early "the next day" (morning, sunrise or sometime there after) Paul walked to a port to take to a ship for passage to continue his journey. Consider again. This was not as a defined gathering for what we think of today as "worship." If it was to honor the first day in this context then we must follow this example and begin our worship from the close of the Seventh Day, at sunset. That is where the context places this described event! And remember. Jesus arose early the morning of the first day, not in the close of the Sabbath Day!

There are no Bible facts whatsoever in support of the First day of the week as a day to be set apart or to be observed by Christians either by Jesus or His apostles after he was resurrected, nor after His ascension. But there is to this day "The Lord's Day," A day appointed for His honor, and it is defined by a number.

This is not a judgment upon anyone it is just the simple Biblical facts, without the distortions of "church" tradition forced upon scripture. Service under fear is not Christ our Creator's desire.

"If you love me. Keep (observe) My commandment/s."

Edited November 9, 2007 by arvy

[Pilgrim7]

Warrior,

It would be good if you read your own post, for your make my point, but you don't realilze it.

8For he finds fault with them when he says:

[Celtic Warrior]

Warrior,

It would be good if you read your own post, for your make my point, but you don't realilze it.

8For he finds fault with them when he says:

[Celtic Warrior]

I did some thinking today (and some reading) and decided to make one last posting in response to your words Pilgrim7.

First off, I thought I'd let you know that there are 3 Early Church Fathers whose writings are included in the books I mentioned, that actually studied under the Apostles. Clement (mentioned in Phil 4:3 and a disciple of Paul) and Ignatius & Polycarp (pupils of St John). I didn't have time to reread them all, but what I did read in Clement's epistles doesn't change my mind about Paul's teachings. I will also state that the epistles of these three WERE CONSIDERED for inclusion in the Accepted Canon of the Bible, but I won't go into the details here.

Philippians 4:2 - 3 (ESV) 2I entreat Euodia and I entreat Syntyche to agree in the Lord. 3Yes, I ask you also, true companion,

Edited November 10, 2007 by Celtic Warrior

[Vickilynn]

Shalom CW,

And what does all that have to do with celebrating the Sabbath as G-d did BEFORE the Law of Moses?

In Genesis 2, G-d institutes the Sabbath and He has never rescinded it. The Sabbath is just that simple and it's something that cannot be argued against with all your arguments against the law.

1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done. 3So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation.

And WHERE in Scripture does it say that God celebrated Sabbath?????

Dear CW,

I gave you the Scriptures, please read them. This is how G-d celebrated the Sabbath and serves as our example, before the Jewish people and before the Law of Moses.

Genesis 2

1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done. 3So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation.

Especially before Moses??? Not where you're referencing to be sure!!!

See above. Yes, before Moses. G-d rested from His works and blessed the 7th day and made it holy and served as our example. Says it very plainly.

By the way, there is no need to shout. I can hear you just fine thank you.

The Bible NOWHERE says that God instituted the Sabbath at Creation...

Actually, it does if you read the simple words. G-d rested and He instituted the eternal 7th day Sabbath at Creation. He "blessed it and made it holy." For whom? For us of course.

I'm also going to go out on a limb and admit that I'm not the best, most educated Bible SCHOLAR in the world (surprise, surprise) and I will be terribly disappointed to find out you've taken MY work without checking it against Scripture, but I also expect that you don't take "THEIR" word either. Scripture IS THE WORD and THE ONLY SOURCE. I "MIGHT" be wrong, but so might "THEY" who you've listened to. The truth is in GOD'S WORD, not mine, nor theirs, nor your favorite preachers.. I've done what I know how to find out true belief, and God Willing, Jesus Leading AND the Holy Spirit TEACHING, someday I will (hopefully) have it all down pat and completely understood. BUT, I will fight Legalists as far as the Spirit leads and until they PROVE their point (and not with PROOF TEXTING, but with God's Word as it was inspired--> been down that road once, won't go there again (I HOPE-GOD WILLING AND PROTECTING)). The Old Covenant was a stepping stone, a teacher, a guide, a road to JESUS-Our only true hope and saviour, nothing more. Legalists will convince you of all the hoops you have to jump through, all the "laws" you HAVE to obey, all the rules you have to follow, how you can "Earn points and wealth and health and prosperity" IF ONLY you will OBEY God. Well I'll tell you now that God's focus is on TOMORROWS world and your place in IT, not today, not on wealth and perishables or whatever focal point your friends wish to burden you with. God LOVES YOU no matter what you do, who you are, how able you are to "keep sabbath" or "avoid fornication" or ..... God loves US without reservation and condition. But I'm venturing into areas I'm not sure I'm qualified to speak on, so I will quit for now

Blessings

None of what you've said above has any relevance to me personally and don't need or appreciate the sermon, thank you. Please, stay on topic. Thanks.

Oh yeah, and for that matter, why are you spelling God as G-d????

For reverence.

Are you so afraid of a LOVING GOD that you can't use His name????

Hmmmm, judgment of a Believer's heart. This is sin. You don't know, so you make up an answer? Shame shame!

cPlease explain!!!

I don't respond to bullying.

Are you Christian or bound up in the LAW????

Again, not the right thing to say since you don't know.

If you ever sincerely ask without yelling and bullying, I might answer.

[BlazeEagle]

A question to everyone,

What do you do if a robber tries to kill your parents?

Hold out your arms & say "Love, not kill?"? as the robber pulls the trigger?

Some are too literal.

Do I make some sense?