nebula Posted October 21, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted October 21, 2007 Revelation 13 1 Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns,+ and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name. 2 Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast. 4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?" 5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. *** Revelation 17 3 So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.... 9 Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits. 10 There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time. 11 And the beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition. 12 The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast. 13 These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast.... 16 And the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. *** So, here is my question. I keep hearing it said that the Anti-Christ will kill the woman Babylon. But according to the passage, it is the 10 kings (horns) which will kill Babylon. Then it says these kings will give their power to the beast (that Babylon was riding on). So, are you saying then that the beast Babylon rides on is the same beast that rose out of the sea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fraught Posted October 21, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 105 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,741 Content Per Day: 0.28 Reputation: 28 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/23/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/30/1959 Share Posted October 21, 2007 i had just these chapters this past week. here is my conclusion so far. the beast is the same. babylon uses the beast to fulfill its purpose of eliminating those belonging to God. although these nations do hate babylon maybe because she is using them - they wouldn't like that - they work together for a time ('to be of one mind' in eliminating their common enemy) p.s.: if you see babylon as 'the present world powers' as described in the new testament, it makes more sense. i see all nations as having had to conform to these powers (principalities) throughout history; it could be that there at the end of the ages, the nations are more aware of the spiritual reality of babylon. i am interested, tho, to hear others' conclusions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massorite Posted October 21, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 38 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,973 Content Per Day: 0.32 Reputation: 36 Days Won: 2 Joined: 04/26/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/13/1953 Share Posted October 21, 2007 Revelation 13 1 Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns,+ and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name. 2 Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast. 4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?" 5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. *** Revelation 17 3 So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.... 9 Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits. 10 There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time. 11 And the beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and is going to perdition. 12 The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast. 13 These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast.... 16 And the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. *** So, here is my question. I keep hearing it said that the Anti-Christ will kill the woman Babylon. But according to the passage, it is the 10 kings (horns) which will kill Babylon. Then it says these kings will give their power to the beast (that Babylon was riding on). So, are you saying then that the beast Babylon rides on is the same beast that rose out of the sea? Actually out side of the EU headquarters in Brussels there is a sculpture of a woman riding a bull and she has the bull by the horns. On the Greek 2 euro coin this same woman riding a bull is stamped on the coin. Her name is Europa and the image of the woman riding the beast is the chosen symbol that represents the EU. The EU has twelve stars in her flag and the number twelve in the bible represents "governmental perfection" and the Antichrist will come out of the EU. Mystery Babylon has everything to do with both commerce and the spirit realm. So yes chapter 13 and 17 are speaking about the same Babylon but we must not forget the Catholic church and her influence in the scheme of things to come. If the world is to worship the Antichrist, the Antichrist must destroy the Catholic church. It does get a bit confusing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted October 21, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Author Share Posted October 21, 2007 Hey - With all due respect, I'm not asking for an interpretation of the beasts or Babylon. What I am asking is for clarification, if it is believed that the Beast in Rev. 17 is the same beast that comes form the sea in Rev. 13? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whirlwind Posted October 21, 2007 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 113 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 11 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/06/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/22/1946 Share Posted October 21, 2007 Hey - With all due respect, I'm not asking for an interpretation of the beasts or Babylon. What I am asking is for clarification, if it is believed that the Beast in Rev. 17 is the same beast that comes form the sea in Rev. 13? In answering this with what I believe is clarification of your question, at least it is what I believe it means, I stepped off into interpretation. I didn't mean to but it became very difficult to explain my thoughts without doing that. Please forgive that and don't read past the first paragraph if you need to skip the interpretation part. In my understanding of Revelation there are two different beasts, both mentioned in Chapter 13, one from the sea and one from the earth. The beast in chapter 17, I believe, is the same beast mentioned in Chapter 13....the one from the earth. As the first beast (13:1) rises from the sea (usually meaning people) and had crowns (rulers) I believe that means it is political, a political beast or as some have called it - one worldism. The second beast (13:11) comes "out of the earth" and "he had two horns" (power) like a lamb, (he looks like our Lamb - Christ), and "he spake as a dragon." He is the dragon pretending to be Christ. There is no need for interpretation of the beast in Chapter 17 as God tells us who the beast is: Rev.17:7 And the angel said unto me, "Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. 8.The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. That beast can only be one entity. Satan was on earth, he is not here now but he shall ascend out of the pit and he has already been condemned to perdition. The woman riding the beast is, in my opinion. religion....false religion. Satan uses false religion when he comes to earth pretending to be Christ. So...I believe that 13:11 is the same beast as 17:7-8 and that is Satan, the false prophet, in the guise of our Saviour. He uses Babylon the Great, false religion, as well as the power of the first beast (13:1) which is the political system. Sorry I went on so long. .......Whirlwind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted October 22, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Author Share Posted October 22, 2007 Whirlwind - Thanks for answering my question! yzf-r1 - Would you please explain how your post above answers the question of if the two beasts are the same or different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massorite Posted October 22, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 38 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,973 Content Per Day: 0.32 Reputation: 36 Days Won: 2 Joined: 04/26/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/13/1953 Share Posted October 22, 2007 Babylon is both an allegorical term for the one world false religious system of "tolerance" and universalism, and also the literal city of Rome, in my opinion...the City on Seven Hills the ten kings of Old Rome (a future form of the EU) and the antichrist help to set up this system, which results in economic prosperity and temporary blissful world peace...the world will be completely in love with the antichirst because of it, SOMEONE finally solved the middle east problem (not to hard to imagine why the world would love such a person, right?), and brought peace and security to the world...the world will "marvel" and declare "WHO IS LIKE THE BEAST?" but the party is short lived, because after 3-1/2 years, the antichrist goes into the newly rebuilt temple in Jerusalem and declares himself to be god, and demands that everyone must worship him and take his mark...the world system of universal religion is gone in an instant, and Rome is burned to the ground....the antichirst, with some help from the False Prophet, declares EVERYONE MUST WORSHIP ME OR DIE...the world has been caught in a snare! they have been baited and tricked! and then all hell breaks lose...literally...worse yet, God allows it Have you ever considered that the use of the word "Babylon" could also apply to the EU? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hr.jr. Posted October 22, 2007 Group: Senior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 615 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 12 Days Won: 1 Joined: 05/21/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted October 22, 2007 The beast in both chapters is the same, the antichrist. The woman is his apostate religious system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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