Adstar Posted March 10, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 12 Topic Count: 75 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 3,399 Content Per Day: 0.43 Reputation: 1,307 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted March 10, 2004 Dear AbbaJesus: Unfortuantely, pacifism is not tolerated on this board. You're outnumbered. Actually any stance not supporting of war is not tolerated on these boards. I have gone back to old discussions on this topic and found that some of my posts (that are in no way offensive) have been deleted. So all i can say let the Spirit convict. All praise The Ancient Of Days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 Idol, Jesus told his disciples to give to them that ask, he didn't say anything at all about using violence in order not to have to give. Giving to someone who asks, and letting someone rob and kill you are two different things. Not even in the same ballpark. Jesus is still around to protect His disciples so why didn't He instruct them in the arts of self defense and give them Karate classes or something while He was still with them. Jesus did not forbid self-defense. In fact the Bible no where forbids it. The Bible does forbid the acts of theft, murder, terrorism and other things from which we are free to defend ourselves. The fact that it is not forbidden to defend oneself and one's family pretty much torpedoes your argument. To try and get the sanctioning of violence out of the message of Christ would seem to twist the scriptures hither, thither, and yon. Murderous violence and self-defense are morally equivalent concepts. You seem to engage in a futile attempt to lump them in the same category. That is fallacious reasoning. Defending one's family or one's life is biblical and it is moral. God has placed in us a survival instinct. We also call that the will to live. Tell me, did God goof when He did that? I am amazed how easily you condemn the victims of violence and not the perpetrators. Using your logic, a victim of a rape would be unChristian if she managed to injure her attacker in an attempt to fend him off. Of course, you don't care about the attacker. It is the victim you condemn as violating the principles of the New Testament because she violently stopped her attacker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest idolsmasher Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 Idol, Jesus told his disciples to give to them that ask, he didn't say anything at all about using violence in order not to have to give. Giving to someone who asks, and letting someone rob and kill you are two different things. Not even in the same ballpark. Jesus is still around to protect His disciples so why didn't He instruct them in the arts of self defense and give them Karate classes or something while He was still with them. Jesus did not forbid self-defense. In fact the Bible no where forbids it. The Bible does forbid the acts of theft, murder, terrorism and other things from which we are free to defend ourselves. The fact that it is not forbidden to defend oneself and one's family pretty much torpedoes your argument. To try and get the sanctioning of violence out of the message of Christ would seem to twist the scriptures hither, thither, and yon. Murderous violence and self-defense are morally equivalent concepts. You seem to engage in a futile attempt to lump them in the same category. That is fallacious reasoning. Defending one's family or one's life is biblical and it is moral. God has placed in us a survival instinct. We also call that the will to live. Tell me, did God goof when He did that? I am amazed how easily you condemn the victims of violence and not the perpetrators. Using your logic, a victim of a rape would be unChristian if she managed to injure her attacker in an attempt to fend him off. Of course, you don't care about the attacker. It is the victim you condemn as violating the principles of the New Testament because she violently stopped her attacker. But that's not what I'm asking. I asked to be shown from scripture that Christ taught support for violence. Why did Christ not teach his disciples to fight back when being persecuted? P.S. smasher - Karate wasn't known in that part of the world at that time. You don't say, well silly ole me! Jesus was God though right? Isn't God omiscient? He might have known about it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest yod Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 Show me the scriptures where Jesus told his followers to practice violence against His enemies??? This thread shot off in the wrong direction. I respect that One Accord has the courage of her conviction. I confess that we won't find a place where Jesus "promoted" violence in any way while He was here as the Son of Man. Like any other aspect of God, the pacifism Yeshua exhibited on the way to the Cross had a specific purpose....just like a war against Israel's enemies has a purpose. The Sovereign God is behind all of it. We have also been told the end of the story and Yeshua isn't coming as a pacifist next time. I think we would all agree that our weapons are not carnal. I've seen no one here advocating senseless murder......only people who think senseless murder should go unopposed. And then we are characterized by the subtle innuendo of pacifism as if we are the reason that dictators of the world are oppressing mankind and enslaving the masses to poverty. It's just ridiculous to call evil good, and good evil. Most pacifists identify with witchcraft over christianity so I'm always a little suspicious of someone who labels themselve as a pacifist first. I believe that One Accord is an exception. I thoroughly enjoyed her writings on the Lord's Prayer...she has deep insight there. But I wasn't trying to start a debate on pacifism. The point of my post was that it is NOT TRUE that pacifists aren't tolerated on this board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest idolsmasher Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 We have also been told the end of the story and Yeshua isn't coming as a pacifist next time. Right, but that is His doing and not man's. it is NOT TRUE that pacifists aren't tolerated on this board. No, just everything they stand for! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LadyC Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 We have also been told the end of the story and Yeshua isn't coming as a pacifist next time. Right, but that is His doing and not man's. it is NOT TRUE that pacifists aren't tolerated on this board. No, just everything they stand for! at the risk of sounding picky, idolsmasher, isn't that the pot calling the kettle black? you're very intolerant of anyone who disagrees with you on this issue, to the point of occasionally making some very bigoted comments about the US, its inhabitants, and specifically any Christians who support this war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest yod Posted March 10, 2004 Share Posted March 10, 2004 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 But that's not what I'm asking. I asked to be shown from scripture that Christ taught support for violence. Why did Christ not teach his disciples to fight back when being persecuted? First of all, we are not talking about persecution. You are (again) confusing the issue. Persecution is one thing. Someone suffering for their faith is an altogether different issue than someone breaking into your house or mugging you on the street. We are talking malicious, mindless violence that is not persecutory in nature. Are you saying that if your wife was being beaten up by another man, that you would not try to step in try to save her life? Would you defend her with your own life, or would you just stand there and "love" her attacker while she bleeds to death? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsth Posted March 11, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 297 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 5,586 Content Per Day: 0.69 Reputation: 193 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/09/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted March 11, 2004 Just because I thought it was interesting...........Did you know that the LORD Himself has a Book of Wars? In His Love, Suzanne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted March 11, 2004 Share Posted March 11, 2004 Just because I thought it was interesting...........Did you know that the LORD Himself has a Book of Wars? Can you elaborate, Suzzanne? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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