asajoseph Posted October 24, 2007 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 11 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/23/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/21/1983 Share Posted October 24, 2007 Good evening all! It's just approaching 7PM here in the slightly chilly UK, and I'm getting ready to head out to visit my girlfriend for the evening. I've been away on business today, and, to cut a long story short, I had plenty of time to think to myself on the train on the way home. Now, those who read my introductory post yesterday, and were kind enough to welcome me here will know, I'm an agnostic - though I don't consider myself to be ignorant of the cases that can be made for either side of the theistic discussion. I don't, in my heart, feel convinced enough of any firm position to commit myself to either atheism or theism, but I am genuinely searching. By nature, I'm an evidentialist, and a logical thinker - I feel that I'm quite good at understanding the logic in argumentation, and understanding when premises do, or do not, lead to the conclusion they're being used to support. So, as I was wondering to myself on the way home today, what is the best, most effective way of arguing (for lack of a better word) for the existence of God / truth of Christianity? What do you guys feel is the best, most logically consistent apologetic going? Asa P.S. Don't feel limited to those arguments that I've mentioned in the sub-title - that was just a feeble attempt at being amusing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
systemstrike_7 Posted October 24, 2007 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 1 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 540 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/04/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/07/1987 Share Posted October 24, 2007 Good evening all! It's just approaching 7PM here in the slightly chilly UK, and I'm getting ready to head out to visit my girlfriend for the evening. I've been away on business today, and, to cut a long story short, I had plenty of time to think to myself on the train on the way home. Now, those who read my introductory post yesterday, and were kind enough to welcome me here will know, I'm an agnostic - though I don't consider myself to be ignorant of the cases that can be made for either side of the theistic discussion. I don't, in my heart, feel convinced enough of any firm position to commit myself to either atheism or theism, but I am genuinely searching. By nature, I'm an evidentialist, and a logical thinker - I feel that I'm quite good at understanding the logic in argumentation, and understanding when premises do, or do not, lead to the conclusion they're being used to support. So, as I was wondering to myself on the way home today, what is the best, most effective way of arguing (for lack of a better word) for the existence of God / truth of Christianity? What do you guys feel is the best, most logically consistent apologetic going? Asa P.S. Don't feel limited to those arguments that I've mentioned in the sub-title - that was just a feeble attempt at being amusing I choose (E) none of the above. As much as I admire Kant, Augustine, Aquinas, and dare I say Craig, I find that the only real proof you will get is in the conclusion made by yourself. These arguments are just fleeting attempts to keep the circle going... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneB Posted October 24, 2007 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 232 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 7,261 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 79 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/19/1959 Share Posted October 24, 2007 ...what is the best, most effective way of arguing (for lack of a better word) for the existence of God / truth of Christianity? What do you guys feel is the best, most logically consistent apologetic going? Relational experience. You say you're out to visit your girlfriend. I live an ocean apart and do not know you or your girlfriend but I have little to no doubt of her existence. Why? ...because you obviously have a relationship with her. Now the more people who testify that they too have a relationship with her (those she works with, her family and so on) does nothing but strengthen my belief that she is a real person. As a believer and follower of Jesus Christ, I cannot argue God into existence using any of the approaches you offer. All I can do is tell you about my personal relationship with Him... my Father, my Redeemer, my Lord and friend. The first Christian creed believed to have been verbalized shortly after the death and resurrection of Christ and written down just a mere 20 or so years later is found in Paul's 1st letter to the church at Corinth. In it, it offers testimony and a list of witnesses who can relate their "relational experience" with the risen Christ. All throughout the Bible and church history up through today, there are numerous witnesses too many to number who can testify to their relational experience with Jesus Christ. Why is it so hard to accept the word of a true believer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
systemstrike_7 Posted October 24, 2007 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 1 Topic Count: 12 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 540 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/04/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/07/1987 Share Posted October 24, 2007 ...what is the best, most effective way of arguing (for lack of a better word) for the existence of God / truth of Christianity? What do you guys feel is the best, most logically consistent apologetic going? Relational experience. You say you're out to visit your girlfriend. I live an ocean apart and do not know you or your girlfriend but I have little to no doubt of her existence. Why? ...because you obviously have a relationship with her. Now the more people who testify that they too have a relationship with her (those she works with, her family and so on) does nothing but strengthen my belief that she is a real person. As a believer and follower of Jesus Christ, I cannot argue God into existence using any of the approaches you offer. All I can do is tell you about my personal relationship with Him... my Father, my Redeemer, my Lord and friend. The first Christian creed believed to have been verbalized shortly after the death and resurrection of Christ and written down just a mere 20 or so years later is found in Paul's 1st letter to the church at Corinth. In it, it offers testimony and a list of witnesses who can relate their "relational experience" with the risen Christ. All throughout the Bible and church history up through today, there are numerous witnesses too many to number who can testify to their relational experience with Jesus Christ. Why is it so hard to accept the word of a true believer? Because so many others claim to know a different God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneB Posted October 24, 2007 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 232 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 7,261 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 79 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/19/1959 Share Posted October 24, 2007 ...what is the best, most effective way of arguing (for lack of a better word) for the existence of God / truth of Christianity? What do you guys feel is the best, most logically consistent apologetic going? Relational experience. You say you're out to visit your girlfriend. I live an ocean apart and do not know you or your girlfriend but I have little to no doubt of her existence. Why? ...because you obviously have a relationship with her. Now the more people who testify that they too have a relationship with her (those she works with, her family and so on) does nothing but strengthen my belief that she is a real person. As a believer and follower of Jesus Christ, I cannot argue God into existence using any of the approaches you offer. All I can do is tell you about my personal relationship with Him... my Father, my Redeemer, my Lord and friend. The first Christian creed believed to have been verbalized shortly after the death and resurrection of Christ and written down just a mere 20 or so years later is found in Paul's 1st letter to the church at Corinth. In it, it offers testimony and a list of witnesses who can relate their "relational experience" with the risen Christ. All throughout the Bible and church history up through today, there are numerous witnesses too many to number who can testify to their relational experience with Jesus Christ. Why is it so hard to accept the word of a true believer? Because so many others claim to know a different God. ...but none claim to have a "personal" relationship. At least I have never heard such a claim except from those who follow Christ. That is why such an experience (to know of) is not relational but much like Deism, it is simply perception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asajoseph Posted October 24, 2007 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 1 Topic Count: 2 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 11 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/23/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 05/21/1983 Author Share Posted October 24, 2007 ...what is the best, most effective way of arguing (for lack of a better word) for the existence of God / truth of Christianity? What do you guys feel is the best, most logically consistent apologetic going? Relational experience. You say you're out to visit your girlfriend. I live an ocean apart and do not know you or your girlfriend but I have little to no doubt of her existence. Why? ...because you obviously have a relationship with her. Now the more people who testify that they too have a relationship with her (those she works with, her family and so on) does nothing but strengthen my belief that she is a real person. Hi Wayne, Leaving in 5, so I'll have to leave my response to systemstrike until tomorrow, but here's my two-penneth-worth on your response. No, first of all, let me say that I certainly wouldn't belittle what anyone believes to be their own personal experiences. I would also tend to agree, that, at least in the Christian worldview, an intellectual conviction without a 'relational experience' (as you put it) to back it up wouldn't be much of a faith. However, beginning at the beginning... The fact is, I could be lying. I could, as it happens, just be a sad old man, whiling away the hours, inventing imaginary girlfriends just to pass the time, make myself feel less lonely, and appear more socially acceptable. I'm not making up my girlfriend (I don't think), but the fact that there are literally billions of men out there, billions of women, and many, many millions of those couple up and form relationships. It's an eminently plausible situation for me to be in, based on what we know about the world, and the way people operate in it. Now, you telling me about God is different from this, as, to me, God isn't necessarily an immediately plausible entity. I don't mean that God is implausible - just that, given the fact that I have far less familiarity with God than I do the concept of a boy and a girl falling in love, it takes more than just your word for me to change my stance on his existence. Hence my question - what apologetic would you (or anyone else) most recommend to someone if trying to convince them to even take the concept of God seriously? I have no doubt that you believe what you believe sincerely - I am just not 100% convinced that you are not mistaken. As a believer and follower of Jesus Christ, I cannot argue God into existence using any of the approaches you offer. All I can do is tell you about my personal relationship with Him... my Father, my Redeemer, my Lord and friend. Which is fair enough - but, I'll be honest about myself for a moment (and this may be a fault on my behalf), that's just not enough to convince me to make such a massive paradigm shift in the way I see the world. Why is it so hard to accept the word of a true believer? Well, for the simple reason that lots of people truly believe lots of different things - the sincerety of your belief is not enough to make it convincing, though it certainly is enough for me to treat your views with the respect that they deserve. Why should I trust your word, though, for example, any more than I trust that of an Islamic suicide bomber? After all, it's fairly evident that they really, really believe in their faith too. I await your response Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneB Posted October 24, 2007 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 4 Topic Count: 232 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 7,261 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 79 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/19/1959 Share Posted October 24, 2007 Leaving in 5 ... I see ya' sticking around. Sorry it took so long for me to respond. I was on the phone for awhile with a friend. Now for my point... The fact is, I could be lying. Sure you could but read my entire statement. I stated, "the more people who testify that they too have a relationship with her (those she works with, her family and so on) does nothing but strengthen my belief that she is a real person." We are not talking about folks who know of her but those who actually have a personal relationship with her. The same applies to true believers in Christ. I have no doubt that you believe what you believe sincerely - I am just not 100% convinced that you are not mistaken. Once again my friend, it isn't about sincerity. It isn't about knowledge, commitment, or even belief. It is about a simple relationship...a relationship much like you have with any other real person. The same interactions are possible with God. Now you may consider me "mental" but the more people who have experienced the same as I have can testify along with me to the same but unique experience. C.S. Lewis, one of the greatest thinkers of our time testified that seeing the relationship with God that others spoke of is what actually got his attention to seek out a relationship with the living God himself. He stated that his conversion experience was a process rather than an event. Mine has been much of the same. As a believer and follower of Jesus Christ, I cannot argue God into existence using any of the approaches you offer. All I can do is tell you about my personal relationship with Him... my Father, my Redeemer, my Lord and friend. Which is fair enough - but, I'll be honest about myself for a moment (and this may be a fault on my behalf), that's just not enough to convince me to make such a massive paradigm shift in the way I see the world. I understand, which is why I am not trying to convince you. I'm just answering your question. Regardless, forget the world for a moment. You won't discover Christ by seeking Him in the world. Why is it so hard to accept the word of a true believer? Well, for the simple reason that lots of people truly believe lots of different things - Once again, it isn't about what we believe but rather what we experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
georgesbluegirl Posted October 24, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 30 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,234 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/17/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 04/10/1987 Share Posted October 24, 2007 Good evening all! It's just approaching 7PM here in the slightly chilly UK, and I'm getting ready to head out to visit my girlfriend for the evening. I've been away on business today, and, to cut a long story short, I had plenty of time to think to myself on the train on the way home. Now, those who read my introductory post yesterday, and were kind enough to welcome me here will know, I'm an agnostic - though I don't consider myself to be ignorant of the cases that can be made for either side of the theistic discussion. I don't, in my heart, feel convinced enough of any firm position to commit myself to either atheism or theism, but I am genuinely searching. By nature, I'm an evidentialist, and a logical thinker - I feel that I'm quite good at understanding the logic in argumentation, and understanding when premises do, or do not, lead to the conclusion they're being used to support. So, as I was wondering to myself on the way home today, what is the best, most effective way of arguing (for lack of a better word) for the existence of God / truth of Christianity? What do you guys feel is the best, most logically consistent apologetic going? Asa P.S. Don't feel limited to those arguments that I've mentioned in the sub-title - that was just a feeble attempt at being amusing I choose (E) none of the above. As much as I admire Kant, Augustine, Aquinas, and dare I say Craig, I find that the only real proof you will get is in the conclusion made by yourself. These arguments are just fleeting attempts to keep the circle going... But "teleological" is such a good word! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christ_Sheep Posted October 24, 2007 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 62 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/24/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/20/1983 Share Posted October 24, 2007 (edited) Hello Asa, Just saw your post, and, to a large degree, I found it to be very interesting. As a recently rededicated Christian/Follower/Servant of Christ, whichever term you'd apply what I have to offer may not be the "best" or "most effective" way of arguing my position that a god exists, and more specifically, that Jesus Christ is lord is this, look no further than your own conscience. Not meaning to come off condescending, but everyone has one. Man-made laws and statutes are "things" we, as people, never needed to see or read advertised before our very eyes to understand the basic premise of right or, wrong. It is very intrinsic, the thief when he or she has stolen something understands, without prior foundational evidence that he or she has done wrong. Your conscience, in fact, is, in my opinion, the leading factor that leads everyone to the truth or the good news of the gospel. You seem like a very humble person and to me it works wonderfully in your favor to begin searching for the truth. Because you can be taught, you seem willing to explore other avenues. Another point I will use is simply the world around us. Accidents or anything done hap-hazardly would, of course, look in great disarray...the world we live in is very orderly. There is a system built in place for everything. The seasons follow one another, consistently, might I add. Hmmm....my favorite quote, "What you can't see has created everything you can see." With that I'll use an example, the planets. By show of hands whom has created the solar system and, with it, everything that exists in outer space? Any rational and free-thinking person would never take the credit for such a feat, why? Because it would be irrational. It would be asinine to believe that one person can take credit for designing space, the galaxy and the other planets. It would not be too much of a stretch to believe that if someone wielded that much power and influence, that they could also control life on this planet as we know it, right? But we as intellectual people know that cannot be the case, otherwise, there in droves would be the solution to cancer, world hunger, racism, etc., and, really, there would be no need for a savior. However, that isn't the case at all. Lastly, what I will say is just this; the world has been majorly "religious" though, to me that is a misnomer for "spiritual" since the advent of time. Throughout history from the Romans to the Greeks, and every sect in between we, as a people have come to believe in some form of higher being. Because it is imprinted on our hearts, and we were created to understand that, by design. Now there may be a differing of opinion on the "name" of the god that most people in the world claim to recognize, and, or serve, but make no bones about it most people from the dawn of creation have professed openly their awareness of a higher spiritual being. And while I've never been one to drift on the side of popularity, the majority of people cannot be wrong, can they? That's just my take, hope it makes some sense. Edited October 24, 2007 by Christ_Sheep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trusting Jesus Posted October 24, 2007 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 66 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,050 Content Per Day: 0.34 Reputation: 22 Days Won: 0 Joined: 09/12/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 09/09/1952 Share Posted October 24, 2007 Hi Asa, I'm glad that you are thinking about this. It means that you are curious as to what Christianity has to offer. I just want to say that I truly hope that something said on these boards will bring you to know Jesus. Well, the the Apostle Paul carried the Gospel to many people and they all had special interests. In 1 Corinthians he said: "For though I be free from all [men], yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all [men], that I might by all means save some. And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you." 1 Corinthians 9:19-23 I study many Bible teachers and learn as much as I can so that I approach an unbelieving person on a level that will touch them. <>< ><> Nathele Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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