Christian Posted November 13, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 25 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 583 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/07/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/14/1962 Share Posted November 13, 2007 Here is the challenge; Using ONLY SCRIPTURE (no commentaries, books, sermons etc...), Convince me that when we Christians take our final breath in this body, that our soul will immediately go to "Heaven", as so many espouse. (My position on the subject is not stated, the "convince me" aspect of the question is rhetorical.) Remember...you must only use Biblical verse. His faithful servant, Christian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Greg Davies Posted November 14, 2007 Share Posted November 14, 2007 Ecc. 12:7 II Cor. 5:1,8 II Kings 2:11 (not really on point, but instructive) Lk. 16:22 (the story of Lazarus the begger who went to "Abraham's bosom" which was where the dead in Christ went before Jesus could take them to heaven when He ascended). Ref: Eph 4:8. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian Posted November 14, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 25 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 583 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/07/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/14/1962 Author Share Posted November 14, 2007 Ecc. 12:7 II Cor. 5:1,8 II Kings 2:11 (not really on point, but instructive) Lk. 16:22 (the story of Lazarus the begger who went to "Abraham's bosom" which was where the dead in Christ went before Jesus could take them to heaven when He ascended). Ref: Eph 4:8. Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. 2 Corinthians 5:1-8 (1)For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. (2) For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: (3) If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. (4) For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. (5) Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. (6) Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (7) (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) (8) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. Hmmmmmm, not seeing it clearly in the verses provided. It is a bit of a stretch on one or two of them, and off topic on the others. And of course, 2 Corinthians 5:6 answers my question with the origin statement. Thanks for the input though Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian Posted November 14, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 25 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 583 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/07/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/14/1962 Author Share Posted November 14, 2007 Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Greg Davies Posted November 14, 2007 Share Posted November 14, 2007 Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks? I have a few aquaintences who are Seventh Day Adventists, so I am somewhat familiar with this doctrine. I always find it curious that some will take isolated scriptures like the ones quoted above from the O.T. and build a doctrine around them that flies in the face of N.T. revelation. The Adventists still cling to the O.T. concept of the Sabbath and certain dietary concepts that Jesus and N.T. teachings unambiguously set us free from. It is not about external ordinances any more but a relationship with Him. His words to the disciples about the Holy Spirit being with them but soon would be in them is a great expample of this change in our relationship with our God. Now we have already seen posted the scriptures quoting Jesus and Paul about what happens at the death of the body; statements that bring joy and hope to the believer. Why would someone want to cling to the existentialist musings of Solomon who's God given wisdom had been corrupted by sin and rebellion as Ecclesiastes gives example of? Sure, there is truth to be gleaned from this book, but only in the context of what it represents. In Psalm 6, David is ovbiously distressed and pleading for his life. In this context, do we take what he says literally? In other Psalms, David cries out to God to destroy his enemies and do all sorts of violent things to them. Are we to take this is as the way we want our enemies to be treated? No, Jesus shows us another way of love and compassion. God bless, Greg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massorite Posted November 15, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 38 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,973 Content Per Day: 0.32 Reputation: 36 Days Won: 2 Joined: 04/26/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/13/1953 Share Posted November 15, 2007 Ecc. 12:7 II Cor. 5:1,8 II Kings 2:11 (not really on point, but instructive) Lk. 16:22 (the story of Lazarus the begger who went to "Abraham's bosom" which was where the dead in Christ went before Jesus could take them to heaven when He ascended). Ref: Eph 4:8. As best as I could tell Jesus rose to heaven by His self and no one else was present with Him. There is not one single place written anywhere in the bible where it says that "when we die we will go to heaven" The spirit that goes back to God when we die is not the soul but the spirit of life IE that which animates the body. We know by scripture that before Jesus we went to the bossom of Abraham or Gehenna so where does the bible say that was changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian Posted November 15, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 25 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 583 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/07/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/14/1962 Author Share Posted November 15, 2007 As best as I could tell Jesus rose to heaven by His self and no one else was present with Him. There is not one single place written anywhere in the bible where it says that "when we die we will go to heaven" The spirit that goes back to God when we die is not the soul but the spirit of life IE that which animates the body. We know by scripture that before Jesus we went to the bossom of Abraham or Gehenna so where does the bible say that was changed. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm The spirit that goes back to God when we die is not the soul but the spirit of life IE that which animates the body. We know by scripture that before Jesus we went to the bossom of Abraham or Gehenna so where does the bible say that was changed. Can you provide scripture to support this brother? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian Posted November 16, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 25 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 583 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/07/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/14/1962 Author Share Posted November 16, 2007 I will also re-frame this discussion and open it up a bit. You see my intention is to examine the responses, as they pertain to definite scriptural examples...not learned positions or opinions. I'm curious how you would go about communicating this subject to the un-saved who do not possess the Bible background that we might. So by using "scripture to interpret scripture" it cuts down on the "personal license" we might use in discussing it, which in turn would cut down on their confusion over our inconsistencies in presenting it to them. And please do not fall back into 1 Corinthians 2:14 as some means to explain their inability to comprehend. I have known saved Christians who have struggled to grasp this concept. So as a lawyer character in well known movie once stated..."OK, I'm having trouble grasping this, so why don't you go ahead and explain it to me like I'm a 6 year old". Depart from any overcomplicated pious exegesis and try to bring your case down to the point that a laymen could understand you. Onward and upward, His faithful servant, Christian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Massorite Posted November 17, 2007 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 38 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,973 Content Per Day: 0.32 Reputation: 36 Days Won: 2 Joined: 04/26/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/13/1953 Share Posted November 17, 2007 As best as I could tell Jesus rose to heaven by His self and no one else was present with Him. There is not one single place written anywhere in the bible where it says that "when we die we will go to heaven" The spirit that goes back to God when we die is not the soul but the spirit of life IE that which animates the body. We know by scripture that before Jesus we went to the bossom of Abraham or Gehenna so where does the bible say that was changed. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm The spirit that goes back to God when we die is not the soul but the spirit of life IE that which animates the body. We know by scripture that before Jesus we went to the bossom of Abraham or Gehenna so where does the bible say that was changed. Can you provide scripture to support this brother? Sure Genesis 2:7 after God made man from the dust his body was lifeless until God breathed the "breath of life" into Adam. When a man dies the last time he exhales is when that same breath of life that God breathed into us like He did Adam goes out of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LOVEFORTHELORD Posted November 18, 2007 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 12 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/11/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/07/1970 Share Posted November 18, 2007 onwingsaseagles Luke 16:19-31,the story of the rich man and the beggar named Lazarus,when they died they went straight to the after life one to ''Abraham's bosom'' and one to hell. Luke 23:43 Jesus told the thief one the cross,TODAY you will be with me in paradise. 2nd cor 5:8,The scripture you have quoting in the title of this thread,To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Philippians 1:23-23,vs 23 For I am in a straight betwixt two,having a desire to depart,and be with Christ;which is far better, vs 24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you. Jesus knew that the very day of his death he would go directly into the after life.Also Paul knew that the very moment his soul left his body he would be with the Lord. Jesus wasn't telling the thief he would be in paradise that day,because he told us in Mt 12:40 that he would spend 3 nights in the heart of the earth,so he couldn't have been talking about going to paradise that same day.If you move the coma it reads: And Jesus said unto him,verily I say unto thee today, thou shalt be with me in paradise.So either Jesus was mistaken in Mt 12:40 or everyone else is,who do you believe? For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain! How could Paul have told this to the Church at Philippi unless he knew without absolute doubt that he would be with Christ immediately upon departing his earthly body? What could he have possible gained by death except being with Christ? Paul knew this for a fact and he boldly proclaimed it. When we go to sleep we no nothing,when we awake it as if we have lost no time at all,It will feel like we are instantly with the Lord. Dan 12:2 and many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake ,some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. I have a few aquaintences who are Seventh Day Adventists, so I am somewhat familiar with this doctrine. I always find it curious that some will take isolated scriptures like the ones quoted above from the O.T. and build a doctrine around them that flies in the face of N.T. revelation. The Adventists still cling to the O.T. concept of the Sabbath and certain dietary concepts that Jesus and N.T. teachings unambiguously set us free from. It is not about external ordinances any more but a relationship with Him. His words to the disciples about the Holy Spirit being with them but soon would be in them is a great expample of this change in our relationship with our God. SDA's are not the only ones that believe the truth of the scriptures, when they say we should keep the Sabbath,or that the dead will be raised on the last day. what are these verses talking about ? This is an OT scripture that is prophesing the future resurrection.Dan 12:2 and many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake ,some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. John 6:40. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:54. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. John 11:24. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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