Calvin vs. Arminius

[Guest mcm42]

hmmm... time, need time.

I originally would have said that the remnant would be saved, but your Romans 11 reference is interesting. I need to look into that some more.

Thanks for the quote... I'll definatly get back to you... God Bless...

[stevehut]

I just figured out why this question seems so strange to me...

My answer would be "none of the above", and I suspect many others would vote likewise. But the survey does not give that option. So even if you get a million responses, it still won't be an accurate indicator of the opinions in the room.

Or does someone here really believe that Calvin and Arminius are the only options?

[Guest mcm42]

What do you believe if it is "none of the Above". I am curious.

Oh can the Calvinists do the victory dance now? or should we wait a little longer?

[Shelby]

[stevehut]

What do you believe if it is "none of the Above". I am curious.

Certainly, both Calvin and Arminius have some merit to their respective positions.

But I just consider myself a plain ol' Christian, no brand names. I don't believe in creeds or catechisms. Not the kind of thing that I can explain by any short formula like a TULIP.

[Cerran]

He knows what you will choose to eat for dinner tonight, but he didn't choose it for you.

Sure he did. By knowing what you will choose, there was no actual choice. If you know the outcome then the path travelled does not matter. It is simple logic, if you know the outcome, there is no choice, if you do NOT know the outcome there is a choice. Your computer understands this, why is it such a hard concept? Here this might help:

Assume:

If I choose A then C will happen.

If I choose B then D will happen.

Now if I know the outcome is D, what did I choose? If D was not the outcome then I must have chose A and therefore by knowing the outcome there was no choice.

In Boolean:

If choice = A then Outcome = C

If choice = B then Outcome = D

True: if Outcome = D then choice = B

True: if Outcome = C then choice = A

False: if Outcome = D then choice = A

False: if Outcome = C then choice = B

Still don't believe me? I can write a simple program you can run in qbasic that will prove it to you.

I feel that, that view puts God in a very small box.

How? If God chooses to give people free will and the choice to know him then how does that put him in a small box. If he has the capability to be all knowing and all powerful yet chooses to not know what choices people are going to make how does that make him any less powerful?

to quote from The Matrix: "There is no spoon"

[keslc]

What do you believe if it is "none of the Above".  I am curious.

Certainly, both Calvin and Arminius have some merit to their respective positions.

But I just consider myself a plain ol' Christian, no brand names. I don't believe in creeds or catechisms. Not the kind of thing that I can explain by any short formula like a TULIP.

Thank you Stevehut! Me too! God is too big and wondorous to break down into some formula. I do go to a church with a list of beliefs (doctrines) like many do, but those are not the end all and be all of what I believe all of God to be. As Shelby said, there is too much of God to fit into a nice neat little box and label ourselves like that.

[Work in Progress]

I'm sure the majority of Christians can claim what you just did, even those that "label themselves" "in a neat little box" and align themselves with the teachings of Calvin or Armenius. I know a lot of both, but I don't know any robots.

[Work in Progress]

But I just consider myself a plain ol' Christian, no brand names.

If that is what you are comfortable with, than that's great. As for me, I am not comfortable being "generic", but prefer a "brand name". Lots of study in the word is what causes one to realize what and why they believe, to understand the God they worship on a deeper level, and to be able to share that God with others. To me, being 'generic' means not delving deeper, not understanding more. 'Brand name' means I've studied and sought and prayed, and I agree with a very renowned teacher (of which there are many) who has much credibility and merit. I'm sure there are reasons you believe what you do - books you've read, teachers/Pastors you've listened to. They made sense, they backed up what they taught you, and you believed it. You got saved because someone taught you about Christ. Nothing wrong with recognizing good, credible and sensible teaching.

[Guest mcm42]

Know this, you cannot fathom his glory, nor his intelligence, don't think that He isn't willing to allow you to make your own decisions. He is not some puppetier, why have Grace if he has chosen, why forgiveness, why Salvaiton?

I wonder... why have grace if he has not? Why die on the cross if your not going to draw some to yourself? Understand John 6, that NO MAN comes to the Father UNLESS HE IS DRAWN. In Fact, no one can come to the father UNLESS GOD grants him that ability. It is clear that not all come to Christ, and therefore not all have been given the ability, and not all are drawn!

John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him"

John 6:65 "This is why I told you that no on e can come to me unless it is granted him by the father"

The sheep of the Flock, hear his voice, they did not hear him because they were not of the flock. Those of the flock, those whom the Father has given to Christ will hear his voice, and they will be saved, and only those whom are of the flock will know the good shepherd, "My sheep hear my voice...but you do not believe because you are not of my flock".

We are chosen... Period. How that plays out in life is not of my concern, I do what Christ has called me to do, it is not for me to question His ways, but to do as he has commanded!