Calvin vs. Arminius

[larryt]

All of Armenianism puts man before God. With Armenianism, His whole perfect plan of salvation is based on whether man accepts it or rejects it - giving man power and control. Only God is in complete and total control and not hindered by mere man.

God created man in His image and that image is a being with free will. God leaves it up to us to accept or not accept grace. If God is in complete control with no human input, then one of two scenarios are likely:

1) God gives everyone salvation

2) God gives a select few salvation and He decides who is selected

In the first case, there was no need for Christ because God makes his own rules and didn't need Christ to set an example for us to follow.

In the second case, Christianity is a cruel joke for those who were not predestined for salvation. That is, unless all of the people who choose Christ were predestined to choose Christ and then all those who reject grace were obviously not predestined. Again, what is the point of Christ if its all just a facade for predestination?

God lets us choose as part of a refining process. He is bringing us back to paradise and full communion with Him and we need to be perfected first.

Hi Bryan,

You are correct that man was created in the image of God. I put the emphasis on was. What happened in the fall????? The problem I find in free will is no one is willing to define free will. What is man's will free from.....? And what is man's will free to do.....? What controls the will and what is the will subject to anything?

1) God does not give salvation to everyone. That is agreed.

2) This is what the bible describes as election. Those chosen/elected before the foundation of the world.

Who are the elect in the following?

Ro 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? [it is] God that justifieth.

Col 3:12 ¶ Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect’s sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Did God choose to save some even before the foundation of the world?

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Grace & Peace

Free will is the ability to reason and decide on a course of action based on whatever criteria you decide is best. Sometimes you make the right decision. Sometimes you make the wrong one. And the counsel you choose to listen to is your responsibility. After Pentecost, mankind was ready to receive a Counselor in the form of the Holy Spirit to guide us into the next phase of our return to the garden, which is simply full communion with God.

As for the quotes proving the elect: someone who believes strongly in Arminianism has a similar set of quotes proving his case too. Each epistle was written as a letter to a specific person or persons for a specific reason. Pulling quotes from them like they are a law book without context can serve any agenda.

Hi Bryan,

What you describe is the WILL. The word free is an adjecttive that describes the will and therefore is an added word. I do not dispute that man has a will. I do dispute whether or not it is free. To determine that point is to define just what is free about the will if anything.

I put the versed there not as proof but in reference to a question. Who are these "elect" in the verses I posted and what does it mean in context of each verse. If you are arminian in your thinking then present the verses that you refer to. Those that hold to this view have little scripture to back up their possition. I find that most often it is because they cannot reconcile a God who is absolutely sovereign with their desire to be part of the process of salvation. Salvation is all, entirely of the Lord.

Grace & Peace

LT

[Guest bryanw92]

What you describe is the WILL. The word free is an adjecttive that describes the will and therefore is an added word. I do not dispute that man has a will. I do dispute whether or not it is free. To determine that point is to define just what is free about the will if anything.

I put the versed there not as proof but in reference to a question. Who are these "elect" in the verses I posted and what does it mean in context of each verse. If you are arminian in your thinking then present the verses that you refer to. Those that hold to this view have little scripture to back up their possition. I find that most often it is because they cannot reconcile a God who is absolutely sovereign with their desire to be part of the process of salvation. Salvation is all, entirely of the Lord.

Grace & Peace

LT

Will that isn't free is nothing. Free is actually an unnecessary adjective, but its a word we use to emphasize the nature of our will. Why would God put the human race through all this drama and sufferring if He intended to take only a certain number of predestined souls at the end? If we are just ants that are forced to walk a pathway and then most (many? some? who knows?) of us are discarded as trash, then that goes against the basic idea that God is Love. Why would Jesus tell us about the lost sheep and how He would leave the flock to find the one missing one and rejoice when it was found, if He already knew which sheep he was keeping and which ones were being set free. Jesus speaks over and over again on finding the lost, willingly sacrificing, and about coming to Him. If He knew that He was only taking an elect, then why bother? Is it just a trick to keep the non-elect peaceful until He takes His elect? I don't think so.

As I said earlier, I don't quote scripture out of context. It isn't written to be taken like a collection of bumper stickers on some liberal's Volvo. When I have some time tomorrow, I'll read the verses you listed in their context. But, God pulled me out of my secular life in a very powerful way, and if anyone should believe in Calvinism, it should be me. For a period after I accepted Christ, I did think that I was special, one of the elect. But, I believe something different now.

[larryt]

What you describe is the WILL. The word free is an adjecttive that describes the will and therefore is an added word. I do not dispute that man has a will. I do dispute whether or not it is free. To determine that point is to define just what is free about the will if anything.

I put the versed there not as proof but in reference to a question. Who are these "elect" in the verses I posted and what does it mean in context of each verse. If you are arminian in your thinking then present the verses that you refer to. Those that hold to this view have little scripture to back up their possition. I find that most often it is because they cannot reconcile a God who is absolutely sovereign with their desire to be part of the process of salvation. Salvation is all, entirely of the Lord.

Grace & Peace

LT

Will that isn't free is nothing. Free is actually an unnecessary adjective, but its a word we use to emphasize the nature of our will. Why would God put the human race through all this drama and sufferring if He intended to take only a certain number of predestined souls at the end? If we are just ants that are forced to walk a pathway and then most (many? some? who knows?) of us are discarded as trash, then that goes against the basic idea that God is Love. Why would Jesus tell us about the lost sheep and how He would leave the flock to find the one missing one and rejoice when it was found, if He already knew which sheep he was keeping and which ones were being set free. Jesus speaks over and over again on finding the lost, willingly sacrificing, and about coming to Him. If He knew that He was only taking an elect, then why bother? Is it just a trick to keep the non-elect peaceful until He takes His elect? I don't think so.

I have been contending all along that the will is NOT free but is in bondage. It is controlled by our mind and how we think. Our nature is that we are slaves to sin. We are in bondage to sin. When Adam fell he became the slave of sin and the devil for all humanity. All his descendants were and are born under sin. That is why I have asked you to tell me what we are free to do and free from doing. Your answer tells me you do not know what it is that we are free from. You are struggling with ideas that you cannot reconcile with what I have presented. You mention ants. we are worse than ants and worms before God. There is nothing good in us that God would find to redeemabel. Every human deserves to be in hell for the rebellion of our federal head Adam.

As I said earlier, I don't quote scripture out of context. It isn't written to be taken like a collection of bumper stickers on some liberal's Volvo. When I have some time tomorrow, I'll read the verses you listed in their context. But, God pulled me out of my secular life in a very powerful way, and if anyone should believe in Calvinism, it should be me. For a period after I accepted Christ, I did think that I was special, one of the elect. But, I believe something different now.

You have not mentioned any scripture that you could base your reasoning on at all to contradict what I have posted. And you say that Arminianism can point to scriptures to. What scriptures are you referring to? Point them out to me so I can have a frame of reference.

And I do not believe in Calvinism. I believe in Jesus Christ. The term Calvinism only describes ideas that are found in scripture. I agree with them for the most part but as I mention before you can preach Calvinism and not preach Christ.

Grace & Peace

LT

[Guest bryanw92]

I have been contending all along that the will is NOT free but is in bondage. It is controlled by our mind and how we think. Our nature is that we are slaves to sin. We are in bondage to sin. When Adam fell he became the slave of sin and the devil for all humanity. All his descendants were and are born under sin. That is why I have asked you to tell me what we are free to do and free from doing. Your answer tells me you do not know what it is that we are free from. You are struggling with ideas that you cannot reconcile with what I have presented. You mention ants. we are worse than ants and worms before God. There is nothing good in us that God would find to redeemabel. Every human deserves to be in hell for the rebellion of our federal head Adam.

I see what you are saying. We're looking at freedom from opposite vantage points.

[allofgrace]

Just jumping in here cold.

Calvin burned a Spaniard on a pole for talking against infant baptism, how can I accept anything this man had to say.

Carry on.

Would you cast the first stone? Love, Steven

Casting the first stone is a bit different than listening to him...

comment withdrawn

Edited December 12, 2012 by allofgrace

[larryt]

I have been contending all along that the will is NOT free but is in bondage. It is controlled by our mind and how we think. Our nature is that we are slaves to sin. We are in bondage to sin. When Adam fell he became the slave of sin and the devil for all humanity. All his descendants were and are born under sin. That is why I have asked you to tell me what we are free to do and free from doing. Your answer tells me you do not know what it is that we are free from. You are struggling with ideas that you cannot reconcile with what I have presented. You mention ants. we are worse than ants and worms before God. There is nothing good in us that God would find to redeemabel. Every human deserves to be in hell for the rebellion of our federal head Adam.

I see what you are saying. We're looking at freedom from opposite vantage points.

I look at freedom as only in Christ. Outside of Christ is only bondage. Everything about the natural man is about bondage. The new man is made free indeed. The old man wants nothing of God. The new man only wants Jesus Christ. Paul describes the struggle in Rom. 1-7.

Grace & Peace

LT

[Guest bryanw92]

I have been contending all along that the will is NOT free but is in bondage. It is controlled by our mind and how we think. Our nature is that we are slaves to sin. We are in bondage to sin. When Adam fell he became the slave of sin and the devil for all humanity. All his descendants were and are born under sin. That is why I have asked you to tell me what we are free to do and free from doing. Your answer tells me you do not know what it is that we are free from. You are struggling with ideas that you cannot reconcile with what I have presented. You mention ants. we are worse than ants and worms before God. There is nothing good in us that God would find to redeemabel. Every human deserves to be in hell for the rebellion of our federal head Adam.

I see what you are saying. We're looking at freedom from opposite vantage points.

I look at freedom as only in Christ. Outside of Christ is only bondage. Everything about the natural man is about bondage. The new man is made free indeed. The old man wants nothing of God. The new man only wants Jesus Christ. Paul describes the struggle in Rom. 1-7.

Grace & Peace

LT

What does "Everything about the natural man is about bondage" really mean to you? Don't quote scripture, but what does it really mean to you?

[larryt]

I have been contending all along that the will is NOT free but is in bondage. It is controlled by our mind and how we think. Our nature is that we are slaves to sin. We are in bondage to sin. When Adam fell he became the slave of sin and the devil for all humanity. All his descendants were and are born under sin. That is why I have asked you to tell me what we are free to do and free from doing. Your answer tells me you do not know what it is that we are free from. You are struggling with ideas that you cannot reconcile with what I have presented. You mention ants. we are worse than ants and worms before God. There is nothing good in us that God would find to redeemabel. Every human deserves to be in hell for the rebellion of our federal head Adam.

I see what you are saying. We're looking at freedom from opposite vantage points.

I look at freedom as only in Christ. Outside of Christ is only bondage. Everything about the natural man is about bondage. The new man is made free indeed. The old man wants nothing of God. The new man only wants Jesus Christ. Paul describes the struggle in Rom. 1-7.

Grace & Peace

LT

What does "Everything about the natural man is about bondage" really mean to you? Don't quote scripture, but what does it really mean to you?

The natural man is dead unto God and spiritual things. He is a slave to sin. The devil takes them captive at his will. Except for the general grace of God the natural man is powerless to resist.(Gen 20:6) The natural man is at war with God, is enmity against God. In the flesh there is no good thing nothing that God would even consider saving. It is only His pleasure and His decision that He saves anyone. It is the doctrine of total depravity. Did Adam die spiritually? And what does it mean to be spiritually dead? Some questions you can ponder.

Grace & Peace.

LT

[Guest bryanw92]

The natural man is dead unto God and spiritual things. He is a slave to sin. The devil takes them captive at his will. Except for the general grace of God the natural man is powerless to resist.(Gen 20:6) The natural man is at war with God, is enmity against God. In the flesh there is no good thing nothing that God would even consider saving. It is only His pleasure and His decision that He saves anyone. It is the doctrine of total depravity. Did Adam die spiritually? And what does it mean to be spiritually dead? Some questions you can ponder.

Grace & Peace.

LT

That makes sense. When you view it through the lens of total depravity, then free will is certainly not free. But, I guess I was meant to be a Methodist because Wesley's doctrine that includes Deprivation and restoration through Prevenient Grace has made more sense to me since the first time I ever saw the two doctrines compared. I'm not going to say that it is absolutely correct, but I could not teach or preach using a doctrine that doesn't offer salvation to everyone who is listening. I prefer to speak of a God who "so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." Nothing found in an epistle is more important than that.

[larryt]

The natural man is dead unto God and spiritual things. He is a slave to sin. The devil takes them captive at his will. Except for the general grace of God the natural man is powerless to resist.(Gen 20:6) The natural man is at war with God, is enmity against God. In the flesh there is no good thing nothing that God would even consider saving. It is only His pleasure and His decision that He saves anyone. It is the doctrine of total depravity. Did Adam die spiritually? And what does it mean to be spiritually dead? Some questions you can ponder.

Grace & Peace.

LT

That makes sense. When you view it through the lens of total depravity, then free will is certainly not free. But, I guess I was meant to be a Methodist because Wesley's doctrine that includes Deprivation and restoration through Prevenient Grace has made more sense to me since the first time I ever saw the two doctrines compared. I'm not going to say that it is absolutely correct, but I could not teach or preach using a doctrine that doesn't offer salvation to everyone who is listening. I prefer to speak of a God who "so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." Nothing found in an epistle is more important than that.

Salvation is presented to everyone that hears it. And Prevenient Grace has a lot to do with who eventually gets saved. All of grace and nothing of works, nothing of me.

When we get to the gates of Heaven and see the invitation:

Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

It is truly whosoever chooses to take of the water of life.

When we pass through and see on the inside of the gate:

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Salvation is entirely of the Lord and He will have ALL the Glory.

Grace & Peace

LT