Calvin vs. Arminius

[Guest Bro David™]

I guess we all have to ask within us.

Who do we think Created us.

And if it is God.

How can we then become the Child of Satan at Birth.

[Guest Fluffy the Cactus]

If Calvinism is right, then the fact that some of us are already ordained to go to heaven or hell must mean that we have a God that has either lied to us in telling us in the bible that we have free will, or is unjust as he does not give everyone a chance to be saved. God is just and omnipotent and we choose our actions, so this would lead me to believe that God does not pre-ordain our individual salvations, but instead gives us the ability to choose whether or not to accept this gift.

???

[EricH]

If Calvinism is right, then the fact that some of us are already ordained to go to heaven or hell must mean that we have a God that has either lied to us in telling us in the bible that we have free will, or is unjust as he does not give everyone a chance to be saved.

[EricH]

Hannah... like I told you before...

God's salvation is a gift for all mankind.

[EricH]

But the judgment is more than negative. He who practises sin is of the devil, has morally the same nature as the devil; for he sinneth from the beginning: it is his original character as the devil. Now Christ was manifested that He might destroy the works of the devil; how then can one who shares the character of this enemy of souls be with Christ?

On the other hand, he who is born of God does not practise sin. The reason is evident; he is made a partaker of the nature of God; he derives his life from Him. This principle of divine life is in him. the seed of God remains in him; he cannot sin, because he is born of God. This new nature had not in it the principle of sin, so as to commit it. How could it be that the divine nature should sin?

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So is your point here that Christians do not sin?

[EricH]

My point is that Jesus has paid for the sins of everyone... EVEN those who do not accept the payment... they are deciding that they can do it on their own merit, but the Bible is clear that they have no merit with God, and therefore are doomed to fail.

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So all are saved?

[traveller]

The last few pages of this thread threatens to dissolve into personal attacks. Remember people: no personal attacks.

[EricH]

The last few pages of this thread threatens to dissolve into personal attacks. Remember people: no personal attacks.

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Don't want that at all. I hope I have not been guilty of that

[EricH]

I would agree that at birth we are children of the devil, due to our sin nature.

Joh 8:44  Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

1Jo 3:8  He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1Jo 3:10  In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

But, when we are born-again we become children of God.

Joh 1:12  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

To "become" something means we previously were not that thing.

We are always God's creation, but only those who are born-again are His children.

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Thats correct. It is not our physical age that makes us children of God, it is our spiritual condition that makes us children of God

[EricH]

Without free will, punishment of the wicked is groundless. How can one be justly punished for something he is not culpable for? The Scripture below shows individual culpability for the choice of wickedness or righteousness. Verse 23 is one of several biblical verses speaking of choosing between wickedness and righteousness. A determinist system would have to conclude that indeed, God must take pleasure not only in the death of the wicked, but in the wicked who are exactly what he determined.

Ezek. 18:20 "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

21 "But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.

22 "All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.

23 "Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord God, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?

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All these verses describe is what will happen to the person who chooses. They do not describe what made them able to choose in the first place. there are other verses that do that:

You did not choose Me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask of the Father in My name, He may give to you.

John 15:16

I am not arguing with you that we make a choice. I am arguing that not choosing God is the default path, because we are sinful. The only way we can choose God, is if He enables us to do so.