Calvin vs. Arminius

[Guest mcm42]

I respect what you wrote, but I don't veiw the message as a very accurate translation (personal view). It's surprising to me actually that it says what it says. I had not yet read it until now. Have you Consulted a NASB, NKJV, KJV, NIV or some of the more Literal texts.

The Message and the New Living, are good for reading, but I wouldn't use them for doctrine, but you said you looked at multiple versions, I can respect that.

8

[Cerran]

Yes! That is what I see when I read Romans chapter 9, most explicitly it says that God can choose to make, from the same lump of clay, one vessel for glory, and one for wrath. Is that fair? Paul's answer is who are you to answer back to God!

To me it seems that God is pointing out that man has both the capacity for good and pleasing God, and the capacity for Evil and displeasing God. I answer back to God because I am his creation made in his image.

Now, we know we were made in his image and since God is infallible and all knowing (Your deterministic view) then since we sinned we are imperfect and that means since we were made in his image that he is imperfect. However, if we don't take the deterministic view, and we DO have free will. Then God either is not all knowing, OR he chooses not to know how people are going to chose thereby giving us free will and avoiding the possibility that he is not perfect (my view).

I'm going to have to go back to my HC study bible at some point to pull out some examples, but it is my belief man has free will which is why Adam and Eve sinned and why Jesus was sent to save us. From your view there would be no reason to try to convert others or even to try and live a sin free life. (Notice I said try )

[Shelby]

Well I must agree to disagree. I don't think I can put it any other way but to say that that scripture is in regards to God's calling upon a person's life.

I use mainly the NASB because it is word fo rword and thought for thought translation. But the Message bible is: "It's directly translated from the Greek and Hebrew texts and is intentionally designed to be a reading Bible rather than a study Bible. " I got from a reliable source for Bible comparison online.

I see what you are using as your "arguement" (not badly) for your stance. But the bottom line is that he was speaking about role in life not Salvation. Those scriptures you referenced meant calling on life, like what he is directing you to to better show his Glory to the nations. But God does not predestine who will go to heaven or hell, that is up to the person, God will give the perrson the tools, and use his Holy Spirit to guide you in the path that wil most glorify Him. That doesn't mean you will go that way, or even if you do that you have chosen him. He says, "I stand at the door and knock" you have to answer. He gives you that choice.

Keep up the study. http://www.newlivingtranslation.com/pdfs/B...ranslations.pdf

is a sight that explains about how the Bible is translated. I think it might help you in seeing what is credible or not.

Thank you for all you input and study.

[Guest mcm42]

But the bottom line is that he was speaking about role in life not Salvation. Those scriptures you referenced meant calling on life

If God prepares vessels for glory and some for destruction, how does that refer to their role in life? (I don't see it)

3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope

Is this verse talking about calling on life too?

He says, "I stand at the door and knock" you have to answer. He gives you that choice.

Just curious then, who would answer the door if we're all totally depraved? Are we even capable of answering if We're Totally depraved, Dead in sin? (I would say we are not, I'm wondering how you have total depravity and free choice, that's what I"m really trying to figure out about your view I think).

Sorry, I almost didn't reply, but it's important to me to see how you handle it, that's all, I know we may never agree on this issue, so be it, but I still like to understand people, and what God has shown them through His word.

God Bless

[serotta]

Actually, I think it was handled it very nicely in the definition of depravity that was posted:

In statements of doctrine, depravity is often called total depravity. This does not mean that every person is as bad as he or she can be, but rather that the depravity which sin has produced in human nature extends to the total personality. No area of human nature remains unaffected.

Personally I think it's a huge stretch for you to take all of the Bible's references to ALL, and to say that ALL really mens just His select group, which is a smaller subset of ALL. "For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". Just as all have fallen, grace is available to all. But there is much that we agree upon, as shown in my post on the previous page. Peace to all.

Editted to add:

Just as people can do right for the wrong reasons (non-believing philanthropists) people can do right for the right reason too. I personally believe that He is knocking on all doors at all times, it's just that many choose to ignore, many more yell out "just a minute, I'm busy", and a few open the door and let Him in. I have often said the prayer asking God to knock on someones door in a way in which they will hear.

[Shelby]

QUOTE

But the bottom line is that he was speaking about role in life not Salvation. Those scriptures you referenced meant calling on life

If God prepares vessels for glory and some for destruction, how does that refer to their role in life? (I don't see it)

You are reading one translation, not sure which one but, you should check out that reference in a Bible dictionary. Secondly, the NASB, which I believe to be one of the most accurate says, 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?"

See that is speaking about their role or calling in life, to be a vase or a baking pot from the same clay, but different uses. It does not determine which one will be destroyed.

QUOTE

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope

Is this verse talking about calling on life too?

QUOTE

He says, "I stand at the door and knock" you have to answer. He gives you that choice.

Just curious then, who would answer the door if we're all totally depraved? Are we even capable of answering if We're Totally depraved, Dead in sin? (I would say we are not, I'm wondering how you have total depravity and free choice, that's what I"m really trying to figure out about your view I think).

Sorry, I almost didn't reply, but it's important to me to see how you handle it, that's all, I know we may never agree on this issue, so be it, but I still like to understand people, and what God has shown them through His word.

I agree about your last paragraph. It comes down to how much you choose to hang on one word or verse or another. In all you should take it in its context. This letter from Paul was about finding God's purpose or calling. That is what I have researched and found over and over again. I read the whole book and it is very consistent. Even the verses that it sights in other books is condusive to "calling".

I choose not to redeine depraved over again, I think our understanding is different. I wrote what I meant by that. Depraved meaning we cando nothing to inherit the kingdom alone.

I do appreciate your questions they have helped to solidify my findings and beliefs.

GBU

[Guest mcm42]

O.K. I agree with the posted definition, which would mean that " No area of human nature remains unaffected." Then how can we, if every area is affected, capable of choosing Christ on our own? Doesn't God or the Spirit have to do something in us to allow us to make that decision? Otherwise we would never come to Christ of our own accord.

huge stretch for you to take all of the Bible's references to ALL, and to say that ALL really mens just His select group, which is a smaller subset of ALL

That is a most interesting sentence. First I don't take every occurance of all, and I don't stretch any of them. My understanding of the Word All is in reference to Jews versus all Nations (or people groups).

So, in certain instances I read the word ALL like this, For Christ died for All (not just the Jews but All Men.) It's the fact that Salvation is not reserved for just the Jews but to All (people Groups)

"For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God"

The reason we read this as All people, that is every individual person is Because Paul also writes in this passage "none is righteous NO NOT ONE." Making it clear that He's speaking of each individual human being, that his All means ALL at least in this instance.

"For God so loved the World" (every individual or not just the Jews but the World (all people groups)

I hope that makes sense, it's alway difficult to explain ALL, it's actually a very funny word.

[Guest mcm42]

This letter from Paul was about finding God's purpose or calling. That is what I have researched and found over and over again. I read the whole book and it is very consistent. Even the verses that it sights in other books is condusive to "calling

Are you talking about Romans?

[Shelby]

O.K. I agree with the posted definition, which would mean that " No area of human nature remains unaffected." Then how can we, if every area is affected, capable of choosing Christ on our own? Doesn't God or the Spirit have to do something in us to allow us to make that decision? Otherwise we would never come to Christ of our own accord.

Just because sin has "affected" every area doesn't mean it has taken over every area. I have sin in my life I am sure, but I want to live for Jesus. We are capable of making a good decision under the influence of Sin. It all comes down to Who God is to you. To me he is a gracious loving father, who yearns to have a relationship with me, and hurts when I choose things that do not include him. He is still there when I realize I left him out and he accepts me over and over, but i choose whether to answer his calling on my life, I choose to let his spirit guide me daily, I choose to be in fellowship or not.

I don't mean to if the tone of my replies sound strong, I feel strongly about God's will for all of us and for us to realize that day that he is coming is soon, and he is waiting for those who have not, to choose him

GBU

[Shelby]

Yes, Romans was written by Paul.