Calvin vs. Arminius

[dovesandserpents]

That was still a summary of Calvinin's work.

[Ovedya]

That was still a summary of Calvinin's work.

Nope. It is the original Arminian Document.

[dovesandserpents]

That was still a summary of Calvinin's work.

Nope. It is the original Arminian Document.

Oopse. Sorry, I should have written "Arminius' work." Jacob Arminius had already died by the time he articles were written.

[tah]

I am neither...

I am a "Son-flower"

I am glad this is posted ,in all serious though..

This place is a learning experience for me!!

[Guest Chemnitz]

Well, I'm Lutheran so the whole debate is kind of beyond me...I mean, I understand it, but I think it's kind of a mistake (and maybe just a tish arrogant) to think that the whole gamut of Protestant soteriology can, or should be summed up in relation to your own.

[Oh No Melon]

I have a sincere question for Calvinists: Was God the ultimate cause of Man's Fall?

If we are to accept predestination as a sound biblical doctrine, we need to understand the implications it has on our understanding of biblical events. Did Adam choose to disobey God's commandment not to eat from the forbidden tree, or did God actually author Man's rebellion? If God drove Adam to sin, thereby forcing the world into a state of "total depravity", how could God justly curse him? What about Satan? Was Lucifer willfully defiant, or did God force him and one-third of the angels to rebel?

I have oft heard Calvinists accuse Arminians of reducing God's influence. However, I get the impression that Calvinism exonerates Man of his responsibility. Just my opinion. Don't jump all over me.

Edited April 18, 2006 by Oh No Melon

[KatieK]

Hey I've been reading the debate on calvin vs. amirmian(how spell?). and I've got a question for Calvinists too. I personnally have absolutely no idea where i stand on this. The calvinists make the point that God picks out who is saved and whos not with no choice for the human. Well if thats right how does God feel about the unsaved who go to hell? I suspect that a friend of mine who ran away a few monthes ago is dead. she claimed to be a Wikkian and a witch. (scary) It broke my heart to think about the possiblity/likelyhood that she was in hell. does it break Gods heart too? How can you pray for people if everything is already planned out totally? Whats the point of missions if it makes no difference anyway? I don't get it.

I'd really like to know thae answer to Oh No's question too.

[st. Worm]

"How can you pray for people if everything is already planned out totally? Whats the point of missions if it makes no difference anyway? I don't get it."

God ordains everything that comes to pass. However, he uses various means to accomplish his will. Your prayers may be a means God uses to accomplish his plan. That does not mean your prayers change God's mind but that it is the vehicle by which he fulfills his will.

Why do you say missions make no difference it God plans and ordains the future? It is through missions that God ordains that his Word travels around the world.

And yes, God does determine who receives His Grace. He says in his Word that "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy". But one of the great paradoxes of God's word is that he says that he wishes all would come to repentance and yet we know that not all receive the gift of saving faith. We accept what God says yet we dare not try to use man's logic to reconcile it to suit us.

Luther called it the theology of glory when men tried to completely understand the mysteries of God such as predestination adn election. We can only accept what the Bible says about them but we do not have the right or the ability to understand the invisible things of God. And we are commanded by God to spread the gospel to all nations, yet it is up to Him as to what the effect will be of our efforts.

[Oh No Melon]

God ordains everything that comes to pass.

So you believe that God ordains sinful actions? I see. I guess this answers my question. You do, in fact, believe that God orchestrated the Fall of Man.

One of the great paradoxes of God's word is that he says that he wishes all would come to repentance and yet we know that not all receive the gift of saving faith. We accept what God says yet we dare not try to use man's logic to reconcile it to suit us.

Why is it that when "reformed" believers reach the conclusion that key Calvinist doctrines deviate from God's Word, rather than alter their views, they label it a paradox? Holy Scripture and limited atonement are not paradoxical. They are contradictory. God is willing that NONE should perish. Yours is a very anti-intellectual approach. Did you ever consider the possibility that this verse can't be reconciled with Calvinism because your position is unbiblical?

[Smalcald]

But what is the alternative?