Calvin vs. Arminius

[larryt]

So clearly you are teaching God cursing Adam and Eve for His Choice made in them... is this your understanding of God's Sovereignty?

I am not sure what you point is in your question. I believe God cursed all mankind in Adam.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Ge 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Ge 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.

Is God responsible for sin?

No absolutely not.

[larryt]

So clearly you are teaching God cursing Adam and Eve for His Choice made in them... is this your understanding of God's Sovereignty?

I am not sure what you point is in your question. I believe God cursed all mankind in Adam.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Ge 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Ge 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.

Is God responsible for sin?

No absolutely not.

One aspect of this thread is the idea that the natural man has a FREE WILL. Adam is the only man created with a free will. He was the only creature that could choose to obey or disobey without the influence of sin. What happened in the garden is a very important question. When he sinned he lost his ability to choose freely. His will became subject to his carnal mind/nature which cannot grasp spiritual things. And since Adam sinned, all in Adam sinned. Adam sinned of his own free choice. We sin because we are sinners. Adam made the choice for us. This actually a good thing as we can be redeemed where the fallen angels cannot in that they all sinned individually.

Grace and peace.

[enoob57]

So clearly you are teaching God cursing Adam and Eve for His Choice made in them... is this your understanding of God's Sovereignty?

I am not sure what you point is in your question. I believe God cursed all mankind in Adam.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Ge 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Ge 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.

Is God responsible for sin?

No absolutely not.

One aspect of this thread is the idea that the natural man has a FREE WILL. Adam is the only man created with a free will. He was the only creature that could choose to obey or disobey without the influence of sin. What happened in the garden is a very important question. When he sinned he lost his ability to choose freely. His will became subject to his carnal mind/nature which cannot grasp spiritual things. And since Adam sinned, all in Adam sinned. Adam sinned of his own free choice. We sin because we are sinners. Adam made the choice for us. This actually a good thing as we can be redeemed where the fallen angels cannot in that they all sinned individually.

Grace and peace.

then the sovereignty of God is excluded from some things which God Sovereignly decided and that is why I cannot be 100% calvanist!

[larryt]

So clearly you are teaching God cursing Adam and Eve for His Choice made in them... is this your understanding of God's Sovereignty?

I am not sure what you point is in your question. I believe God cursed all mankind in Adam.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Ge 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Ge 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.

Is God responsible for sin?

No absolutely not.

One aspect of this thread is the idea that the natural man has a FREE WILL. Adam is the only man created with a free will. He was the only creature that could choose to obey or disobey without the influence of sin. What happened in the garden is a very important question. When he sinned he lost his ability to choose freely. His will became subject to his carnal mind/nature which cannot grasp spiritual things. And since Adam sinned, all in Adam sinned. Adam sinned of his own free choice. We sin because we are sinners. Adam made the choice for us. This actually a good thing as we can be redeemed where the fallen angels cannot in that they all sinned individually.

Grace and peace.

then the sovereignty of God is excluded from some things which God Sovereignly decided and that is why I cannot be 100% calvanist!

I really do not see how you drew that conclusion from what I said. God is absolutely sovereign in all He decided to do in His creation. You will have to let me in on more of your thought process if I am to understand how you come to the statement you made.

[back2thebible]

Its pretty clear to me, where's wingnut when you need him?....lol

[CaliforniaJosiah]

For those who are not familiar with the debate or the acronyms, here is a brief summation of both.

Jacobus Arminius was a Professor of Divinity at Leyden University in Holland at the turn of the seventeenth century. He was the protege of Theodore Beza, who was John Calvin's successor. Arminius was a strict Calvinist early on, but later he developed a set of doctrines that were divergient from the widely accepted doctrines of Calvinism. Arminius's teachings concerning sin, selection, predestination, and eternal security attracted a following. Some time after his death in 1609 some of his followers consolidated his teachings into 5 concise points (Later identified by the acronym DAISY) and presented them in a formal letter of Remonstrance (or objection) to the Reformed Church of Holland in 1618. The Church conducted a formal inquiry into the claims of the Arminians, and thus, the Synod of Dort was formed. In 1619 the Arminians got their answers in the form of an article known as The Canons of the Synod of Dort. The synod answered each of the five points presented by the Arminians with five contrary points that we now call "The Five Points of Calvinism," otherwise known by the acronym TULIP. Thus, the Synod of Dort absolutely rejected Arminianism as heretical, and confirmed Calvinism as the true doctrine of Christ's church.

However, far from being dispelled, the controversy between these two doctrines exists in the church today. Although both Arminius' and Calvin's doctrines go much further and much deeper than the "boiled down" points outlined by the acronyms, they do suffice to provide the basics of what each theolgical position entails. The acronyms are provided below:

Calvinism

T = Total depravity/ Total inability. Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not -- indeed he cannot -- choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ -- it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation -- it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God.

U = Unconditional Election. God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response or obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause of God's choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God's choice of the sinner, not the sinner's choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

L = Limited Atonement. Christ's redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was a substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ's redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, thereby guaranteeing their salvation.

I = Irresistable Grace. In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The external call (which is made to all without distinction) can be and often is, rejected; whereas the internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man's will, nor is He dependent upon man's cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God's grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended.

P = Perseverance of the Saints. All who were chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end. According to Calvinism: Salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the Triune God. The Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ's death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the gospel. The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration) is the work of God and is by grace alone. Thus God, not man, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.

Arminianism

D = Depravity (Partial depravity or Dead, but somehow alive). Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does so in such a manner as not to interfere with man's freedom. Each sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man's freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God's Spirit and be regenerated or resist God's grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit's assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man's act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner's gift to God; It is man's contribution to salvation.

A = Arbitrary Selection (Abolition of True Grace). God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based upon His foreseeing that they would respond to His call. He selected only those whom He knew would of themselves freely believe the gospel. Election therefore was termined by or conditioned upon what man would do. The faith which God foresaw and upon which He based His choice was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) but resulted solely from man's will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to who would be elected unto salvation. God chose those whom He knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. Thus the sinner's choice of Christ, not God's choice of the sinner, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

I = Inequitable Limitation (of Christ's selection). Christ's redeeming work made it possible for everyone to be saved but did not actually secure the salvation of anyone. Although Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe in Him are saved. His death enabled God to pardon sinners on the condtition that they believe, but it did not actually put away anyone's sins. Christ's redemption becomes effective only if man chooses to accept it.

S = Sovereignty (of the sinner). The Spirit calls inwardly all those who are called outwardly by the gospel invitation; He does all that He can to bring every sinner to salvation. But inasmuch as man is free, he can successfully resist the Spirit's call. The Spirit cannot regenerate the sinner until he believes; faith (which is man's contribution) precedes and makes possible the new birth. Thus, man's free will limits the Spirit in the application of Christ's saving work. The Holy Spirit can only draw to Christ those who allow Him to have His way with them. Until the sinner responds, the Spirit cannot give life. God's grace, therefore, is not invincible; it can be, and often is, resisted and thwarted by man.

Y = Yielding Eternal Uncertainty. Those who believe and are truly saved can lose their salvation by failing to keep up their faith, etc. All Arminians have not been agreed on this point; some have held that believers are eternally secure in Christ -- that once a sinner is regenerated, he can never be lost. According to Arminianism: Salvation is accomplished through the combined efforts of God (who takes the initiative) and man (who must respond) -- man's response being the determining factor. God has provided salvation for everyone, but His provision becomes effective only for those who, of their own free will, choose to cooperate with Him and accept His offer of grace. At the crucial point, man's will plays a decisive role; thus man, not God, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Although we can debate the points here, the goal is just to see where you stand theologically. I personally am more Calvinist than I am Arminian. Some Christians have found a balance between both views, and so are more like 50/50.

So, if we are to debate these points, let's keep it healthy - especially when we get to the matter of eternal security. None of this, "Well you're going to hell if you fool yourself into believing..." Let us all remember that our salvation has been afforded by Christ, and our basis either way is in His blood.

So......where do you stand?

Endnote: The texts of TULIP and DAISY were cut-and-pasted from http://www.lifegoeso...th/calvarmn.htm Credit where credit is due.

I 100% reject BOTH of these.

They both go "too far"

They both subject Scripture to WAY to much HUMAN, sinful, fallen "logic."

They both embrace SOME Scriptures, put too much into them, and then largely "dismiss" others because they don't seem to agree.

I think there is "mystery" here - and that's okay. We don't NEED to understand; we NEED to trust/rely.

I don't UNDERSTAND how or why all these things "crank out." God does. That's all that matters.

I believe that because I believe, GOD did that. ALL good things from God. ALL related to salvation is God's doing.

I believe that we are justified by Grace, because of Christ, through faith - and that's ONE inseparable doctrine and article of faith.

HOW GOD does that - I don't know (fully).

I thus reject TULIP and DAISY.

.

[enoob57]

So clearly you are teaching God cursing Adam and Eve for His Choice made in them... is this your understanding of God's Sovereignty?

I am not sure what you point is in your question. I believe God cursed all mankind in Adam.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Ge 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Ge 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.

Is God responsible for sin?

No absolutely not.

One aspect of this thread is the idea that the natural man has a FREE WILL. Adam is the only man created with a free will. He was the only creature that could choose to obey or disobey without the influence of sin. What happened in the garden is a very important question. When he sinned he lost his ability to choose freely. His will became subject to his carnal mind/nature which cannot grasp spiritual things. And since Adam sinned, all in Adam sinned. Adam sinned of his own free choice. We sin because we are sinners. Adam made the choice for us. This actually a good thing as we can be redeemed where the fallen angels cannot in that they all sinned individually.

Grace and peace.

then the sovereignty of God is excluded from some things which God Sovereignly decided and that is why I cannot be 100% calvanist!

I really do not see how you drew that conclusion from what I said. God is absolutely sovereign in all He decided to do in His creation. You will have to let me in on more of your thought process if I am to understand how you come to the statement you made.

The eternal state Larry is death and hell is swallowed up by God and eternal punishment in that exist ... the rest with God in Life eternal...

Ezek 33:11

11 Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord God, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked

turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'

NKJV

this is as far as Scripture shows us an eternal exist outside of what God would have wanted for them in that exist... Love, Steven

[larryt]

For those who are not familiar with the debate or the acronyms, here is a brief summation of both.

Jacobus Arminius was a Professor of Divinity at Leyden University in Holland at the turn of the seventeenth century. He was the protege of Theodore Beza, who was John Calvin's successor. Arminius was a strict Calvinist early on, but later he developed a set of doctrines that were divergient from the widely accepted doctrines of Calvinism. Arminius's teachings concerning sin, selection, predestination, and eternal security attracted a following. Some time after his death in 1609 some of his followers consolidated his teachings into 5 concise points (Later identified by the acronym DAISY) and presented them in a formal letter of Remonstrance (or objection) to the Reformed Church of Holland in 1618. The Church conducted a formal inquiry into the claims of the Arminians, and thus, the Synod of Dort was formed. In 1619 the Arminians got their answers in the form of an article known as The Canons of the Synod of Dort. The synod answered each of the five points presented by the Arminians with five contrary points that we now call "The Five Points of Calvinism," otherwise known by the acronym TULIP. Thus, the Synod of Dort absolutely rejected Arminianism as heretical, and confirmed Calvinism as the true doctrine of Christ's church.

However, far from being dispelled, the controversy between these two doctrines exists in the church today. Although both Arminius' and Calvin's doctrines go much further and much deeper than the "boiled down" points outlined by the acronyms, they do suffice to provide the basics of what each theolgical position entails. The acronyms are provided below:

Calvinism

T = Total depravity/ Total inability. Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not -- indeed he cannot -- choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ -- it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation -- it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God.

U = Unconditional Election. God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response or obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause of God's choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God's choice of the sinner, not the sinner's choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

L = Limited Atonement. Christ's redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was a substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ's redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, thereby guaranteeing their salvation.

I = Irresistable Grace. In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The external call (which is made to all without distinction) can be and often is, rejected; whereas the internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man's will, nor is He dependent upon man's cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God's grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended.

P = Perseverance of the Saints. All who were chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end. According to Calvinism: Salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the Triune God. The Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ's death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the gospel. The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration) is the work of God and is by grace alone. Thus God, not man, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.

Arminianism

D = Depravity (Partial depravity or Dead, but somehow alive). Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does so in such a manner as not to interfere with man's freedom. Each sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man's freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God's Spirit and be regenerated or resist God's grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit's assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man's act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner's gift to God; It is man's contribution to salvation.

A = Arbitrary Selection (Abolition of True Grace). God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based upon His foreseeing that they would respond to His call. He selected only those whom He knew would of themselves freely believe the gospel. Election therefore was termined by or conditioned upon what man would do. The faith which God foresaw and upon which He based His choice was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) but resulted solely from man's will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to who would be elected unto salvation. God chose those whom He knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. Thus the sinner's choice of Christ, not God's choice of the sinner, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

I = Inequitable Limitation (of Christ's selection). Christ's redeeming work made it possible for everyone to be saved but did not actually secure the salvation of anyone. Although Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe in Him are saved. His death enabled God to pardon sinners on the condtition that they believe, but it did not actually put away anyone's sins. Christ's redemption becomes effective only if man chooses to accept it.

S = Sovereignty (of the sinner). The Spirit calls inwardly all those who are called outwardly by the gospel invitation; He does all that He can to bring every sinner to salvation. But inasmuch as man is free, he can successfully resist the Spirit's call. The Spirit cannot regenerate the sinner until he believes; faith (which is man's contribution) precedes and makes possible the new birth. Thus, man's free will limits the Spirit in the application of Christ's saving work. The Holy Spirit can only draw to Christ those who allow Him to have His way with them. Until the sinner responds, the Spirit cannot give life. God's grace, therefore, is not invincible; it can be, and often is, resisted and thwarted by man.

Y = Yielding Eternal Uncertainty. Those who believe and are truly saved can lose their salvation by failing to keep up their faith, etc. All Arminians have not been agreed on this point; some have held that believers are eternally secure in Christ -- that once a sinner is regenerated, he can never be lost. According to Arminianism: Salvation is accomplished through the combined efforts of God (who takes the initiative) and man (who must respond) -- man's response being the determining factor. God has provided salvation for everyone, but His provision becomes effective only for those who, of their own free will, choose to cooperate with Him and accept His offer of grace. At the crucial point, man's will plays a decisive role; thus man, not God, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Although we can debate the points here, the goal is just to see where you stand theologically. I personally am more Calvinist than I am Arminian. Some Christians have found a balance between both views, and so are more like 50/50.

So, if we are to debate these points, let's keep it healthy - especially when we get to the matter of eternal security. None of this, "Well you're going to hell if you fool yourself into believing..." Let us all remember that our salvation has been afforded by Christ, and our basis either way is in His blood.

So......where do you stand?

Endnote: The texts of TULIP and DAISY were cut-and-pasted from http://www.lifegoeso...th/calvarmn.htm Credit where credit is due.

I 100% reject BOTH of these.

They both go "too far"

They both subject Scripture to WAY to much HUMAN, sinful, fallen "logic."

They both embrace SOME Scriptures, put too much into them, and then largely "dismiss" others because they don't seem to agree.

I think there is "mystery" here - and that's okay. We don't NEED to understand; we NEED to trust/rely.

I don't UNDERSTAND how or why all these things "crank out." God does. That's all that matters.

I believe that because I believe, GOD did that. ALL good things from God. ALL related to salvation is God's doing.

I believe that we are justified by Grace, because of Christ, through faith - and that's ONE inseparable doctrine and article of faith.

HOW GOD does that - I don't know (fully).

I thus reject TULIP and DAISY.

I am currious as to how long you have been thinking about this. Take just the first point in Tulip & DAISY. Total depravity or Depraved but just partially. You personnally, where do you see yourself?

Grace & Peace

[larryt]

So clearly you are teaching God cursing Adam and Eve for His Choice made in them... is this your understanding of God's Sovereignty?

I am not sure what you point is in your question. I believe God cursed all mankind in Adam.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Ge 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Ge 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.

Is God responsible for sin?

No absolutely not.

One aspect of this thread is the idea that the natural man has a FREE WILL. Adam is the only man created with a free will. He was the only creature that could choose to obey or disobey without the influence of sin. What happened in the garden is a very important question. When he sinned he lost his ability to choose freely. His will became subject to his carnal mind/nature which cannot grasp spiritual things. And since Adam sinned, all in Adam sinned. Adam sinned of his own free choice. We sin because we are sinners. Adam made the choice for us. This actually a good thing as we can be redeemed where the fallen angels cannot in that they all sinned individually.

Grace and peace.

then the sovereignty of God is excluded from some things which God Sovereignly decided and that is why I cannot be 100% calvanist!

I really do not see how you drew that conclusion from what I said. God is absolutely sovereign in all He decided to do in His creation. You will have to let me in on more of your thought process if I am to understand how you come to the statement you made.

The eternal state Larry is death and hell is swallowed up by God and eternal punishment in that exist ... the rest with God in Life eternal...

Ezek 33:11

11 Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord God, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked

turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'

NKJV

this is as far as Scripture shows us an eternal exist outside of what God would have wanted for them in that exist... Love, Steven

I still do not see your point you are trying to make. I am not a calvinist as to preach cavinism is futility. We are to preach and teach Jesus Christ and Him Crucified. This does not mean that the points of Calvinism are wrong in explaining the foundations of what we believe.

Why not just address the point TULIP and why you do not agree with them so I have a frame of reference?

God can say that He has not pleasure in the death of the wicked as He has provided a remedy and is not at fault if men do not believe Him.

Grace & Peace

[CaliforniaJosiah]

For those who are not familiar with the debate or the acronyms, here is a brief summation of both.

Jacobus Arminius was a Professor of Divinity at Leyden University in Holland at the turn of the seventeenth century. He was the protege of Theodore Beza, who was John Calvin's successor. Arminius was a strict Calvinist early on, but later he developed a set of doctrines that were divergient from the widely accepted doctrines of Calvinism. Arminius's teachings concerning sin, selection, predestination, and eternal security attracted a following. Some time after his death in 1609 some of his followers consolidated his teachings into 5 concise points (Later identified by the acronym DAISY) and presented them in a formal letter of Remonstrance (or objection) to the Reformed Church of Holland in 1618. The Church conducted a formal inquiry into the claims of the Arminians, and thus, the Synod of Dort was formed. In 1619 the Arminians got their answers in the form of an article known as The Canons of the Synod of Dort. The synod answered each of the five points presented by the Arminians with five contrary points that we now call "The Five Points of Calvinism," otherwise known by the acronym TULIP. Thus, the Synod of Dort absolutely rejected Arminianism as heretical, and confirmed Calvinism as the true doctrine of Christ's church.

However, far from being dispelled, the controversy between these two doctrines exists in the church today. Although both Arminius' and Calvin's doctrines go much further and much deeper than the "boiled down" points outlined by the acronyms, they do suffice to provide the basics of what each theolgical position entails. The acronyms are provided below:

Calvinism

T = Total depravity/ Total inability. Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not -- indeed he cannot -- choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ -- it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation -- it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God.

U = Unconditional Election. God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response or obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause of God's choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God's choice of the sinner, not the sinner's choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

L = Limited Atonement. Christ's redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was a substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ's redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, thereby guaranteeing their salvation.

I = Irresistable Grace. In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The external call (which is made to all without distinction) can be and often is, rejected; whereas the internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man's will, nor is He dependent upon man's cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God's grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended.

P = Perseverance of the Saints. All who were chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end. According to Calvinism: Salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the Triune God. The Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ's death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the gospel. The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration) is the work of God and is by grace alone. Thus God, not man, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.

Arminianism

D = Depravity (Partial depravity or Dead, but somehow alive). Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does so in such a manner as not to interfere with man's freedom. Each sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man's freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God's Spirit and be regenerated or resist God's grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit's assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man's act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner's gift to God; It is man's contribution to salvation.

A = Arbitrary Selection (Abolition of True Grace). God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based upon His foreseeing that they would respond to His call. He selected only those whom He knew would of themselves freely believe the gospel. Election therefore was termined by or conditioned upon what man would do. The faith which God foresaw and upon which He based His choice was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) but resulted solely from man's will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to who would be elected unto salvation. God chose those whom He knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. Thus the sinner's choice of Christ, not God's choice of the sinner, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

I = Inequitable Limitation (of Christ's selection). Christ's redeeming work made it possible for everyone to be saved but did not actually secure the salvation of anyone. Although Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe in Him are saved. His death enabled God to pardon sinners on the condtition that they believe, but it did not actually put away anyone's sins. Christ's redemption becomes effective only if man chooses to accept it.

S = Sovereignty (of the sinner). The Spirit calls inwardly all those who are called outwardly by the gospel invitation; He does all that He can to bring every sinner to salvation. But inasmuch as man is free, he can successfully resist the Spirit's call. The Spirit cannot regenerate the sinner until he believes; faith (which is man's contribution) precedes and makes possible the new birth. Thus, man's free will limits the Spirit in the application of Christ's saving work. The Holy Spirit can only draw to Christ those who allow Him to have His way with them. Until the sinner responds, the Spirit cannot give life. God's grace, therefore, is not invincible; it can be, and often is, resisted and thwarted by man.

Y = Yielding Eternal Uncertainty. Those who believe and are truly saved can lose their salvation by failing to keep up their faith, etc. All Arminians have not been agreed on this point; some have held that believers are eternally secure in Christ -- that once a sinner is regenerated, he can never be lost. According to Arminianism: Salvation is accomplished through the combined efforts of God (who takes the initiative) and man (who must respond) -- man's response being the determining factor. God has provided salvation for everyone, but His provision becomes effective only for those who, of their own free will, choose to cooperate with Him and accept His offer of grace. At the crucial point, man's will plays a decisive role; thus man, not God, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.

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Although we can debate the points here, the goal is just to see where you stand theologically. I personally am more Calvinist than I am Arminian. Some Christians have found a balance between both views, and so are more like 50/50.

So, if we are to debate these points, let's keep it healthy - especially when we get to the matter of eternal security. None of this, "Well you're going to hell if you fool yourself into believing..." Let us all remember that our salvation has been afforded by Christ, and our basis either way is in His blood.

So......where do you stand?

Endnote: The texts of TULIP and DAISY were cut-and-pasted from http://www.lifegoeso...th/calvarmn.htm Credit where credit is due.

I 100% reject BOTH of these.

They both go "too far"

They both subject Scripture to WAY to much HUMAN, sinful, fallen "logic."

They both embrace SOME Scriptures, put too much into them, and then largely "dismiss" others because they don't seem to agree.

I think there is "mystery" here - and that's okay. We don't NEED to understand; we NEED to trust/rely.

I don't UNDERSTAND how or why all these things "crank out." God does. That's all that matters.

I believe that because I believe, GOD did that. ALL good things from God. ALL related to salvation is God's doing.

I believe that we are justified by Grace, because of Christ, through faith - and that's ONE inseparable doctrine and article of faith.

HOW GOD does that - I don't know (fully).

I thus reject TULIP and DAISY.

I am currious as to how long you have been thinking about this. Take just the first point in Tulip & DAISY. Total depravity or Depraved but just partially. You personnally, where do you see yourself?

Grace & Peace

On that SINGULAR point, I'm with the Calvinists.