World Dedicated to Creation of Terrorist State

[nebula]

but the true eternal Church is of Christ alone as its head and can never be wrong.

Smalcald, I am seriously not understanding this theology of yours.

All I know is that the only time I have heard the phrase "true church," it is spoken by people belonging to some cult group who claims that they are the true church (the rest of us are heretics).

But let me ask this - have you read Paul's account of when he rebuked Peter? Was Paul wrong for rebuking Peter, or was Peter in the wrong and deserving the rebuke? So, which one of them was not a part of the true church, then? (For if both were, how could one of them have been wrong, by your theology)

[Smalcald]

Hi Nebula,

I know we have had this discussion before

But I assure you I am not part of a cult which claims it is the "true" Church. What I mean by the true Church is the invisible, eternal gathering of all true believers to Christ, the head of the true Church. This Church is made up of that group with Christ as it's literal head, this Church is simply the group of all true believers who have ever lived who have had a true saving faith in Christ; it is eternal, Christ said that Hades will not prevail against this Church, He also gave it some authority on this earth, those are not passages we can just throw out. Do you believe that a Church that Christ directed could be wrong? Now could the humans in that Church be wrong? Yes they can and certainly can be rebuked and made better and by the grace of God they will come into conformity with this true eternal faith.

So when we say the Church turns its back on Israel what we really mean is that humans in error and who are possibly calling themselves members of the visible Church are in error, not that the true eternal Church is in error or is turning their back on Israel.

Of course only those people who have faith in Christ are members of this true Church, and hopefully that is where we all are. I pray that those people in Israel come to faith in Christ so that they too can have salvation.

Certainly I honestly believe that Israel is held to a double standard. I think that we must support them and fight for their existence and as Shiloh says combat some of this PC stuff we are now hearing about the PA and so forth. But anyway we are far of course now I actually agree with the OP.

[Guest shiloh357]

What I mean by the true Church is the invisible, eternal gathering of all true believers to Christ, the head of the true Church. This Church is made up of that group with Christ as it's literal head, this Church is simply the group of all true believers who have ever lived who have had a true saving faith in Christ; it is eternal, Christ said that Hades will not prevail against this Church, He also gave it some authority on this earth, those are not passages we can just throw out. Do you believe that a Church that Christ directed could be wrong? Now could the humans in that Church be wrong?

This dichotomy you are drawing... I do not see it in the Scriptures. The church, be it "invisible" or "visible" is made up of people who are at times in error. While the Church as a whole is not in error concerning the essentials of the faith. You seem to really be reaching to claim that this "invisible" church as you call it, cannot EVER be in error.

How could they be wrong??? How do biblically defend that anyone belonging to this "invisible" church must be considered inerrant? That is not a biblical teaching. It may sound good to you on the surface, but if you had to biblically develop and demonstrate that theology, you could'nt because it is not in the Bible.

[Smalcald]

What I mean by the true Church is the invisible, eternal gathering of all true believers to Christ, the head of the true Church. This Church is made up of that group with Christ as it's literal head, this Church is simply the group of all true believers who have ever lived who have had a true saving faith in Christ; it is eternal, Christ said that Hades will not prevail against this Church, He also gave it some authority on this earth, those are not passages we can just throw out. Do you believe that a Church that Christ directed could be wrong? Now could the humans in that Church be wrong?

This dichotomy you are drawing... I do not see it in the Scriptures. The church, be it "invisible" or "visible" is made up of people who are at times in error. While the Church as a whole is not in error concerning the essentials of the faith. You seem to really be reaching to claim that this "invisible" church as you call it, cannot EVER be in error.

How could they be wrong??? How do biblically defend that anyone belonging to this "invisible" church must be considered inerrant? That is not a biblical teaching. It may sound good to you on the surface, but if you had to biblically develop and demonstrate that theology, you could'nt because it is not in the Bible.

But Christ is the head of this Church and specifically founded this true Church, no it can't be wrong unless Christ its leader is wrong.

[Guest shiloh357]

But Christ is the head of this Church and specifically founded this true Church, no it can't be wrong unless Christ its leader is wrong.

Like I said, it is not a biblical teaching and so far, you have made no attempt to show the scripturality of it. There is nothing in the Bible that declares the "true Church" to be inerrant or infalliable. If there is, please post the Scriptures that say so.

[stan4257]

But Christ is the head of this Church and specifically founded this true Church, no it can't be wrong unless Christ its leader is wrong.

Like I said, it is not a biblical teaching and so far, you have made no attempt to show the scripturality of it. There is nothing in the Bible that declares the "true Church" to be inerrant or infalliable. If there is, please post the Scriptures that say so.

Simply as a reference to what some think about the scriptural proof of infallibility, and not in any way an attempt to argue in favour of it, the following is an extract from the Catholic Encyclopaedia under 'Infallibility'.

"In order to prevent misconception and thereby to anticipate a common popular objection which is wholly based on a misconception it should be premised that when weappeal to the Scriptures for proof of the Church's infallible authority we appeal to them merely as reliable historical sources, and abstract altogether from their inspiration. Even considered as purely human documents they furnish us, we maintain, with a trustworthy report of Christ's sayings and promises; and, taking it to be a fact that Christ said what is attributed to Him in the Gospels, we further maintain that Christ's promises to the Apostles and their successors in the teaching office include the promise of such guidance and assistance as clearly implies infallibility. Having thus used the Scriptures as mere historical sources to prove that Christ endowed the Church with infallible teaching authority it is no vicious circle, but a perfectly legitimate iogical procedure, to rely on the Church's authority for proof of what writings are inspired."

[Guest shiloh357]

But Christ is the head of this Church and specifically founded this true Church, no it can't be wrong unless Christ its leader is wrong.

Like I said, it is not a biblical teaching and so far, you have made no attempt to show the scripturality of it. There is nothing in the Bible that declares the "true Church" to be inerrant or infalliable. If there is, please post the Scriptures that say so.

Simply as a reference to what some think about the scriptural proof of infallibility, and not in any way an attempt to argue in favour of it, the following is an extract from the Catholic Encyclopaedia under 'Infallibility'.

"In order to prevent misconception and thereby to anticipate a common popular objection which is wholly based on a misconception it should be premised that when weappeal to the Scriptures for proof of the Church's infallible authority we appeal to them merely as reliable historical sources, and abstract altogether from their inspiration. Even considered as purely human documents they furnish us, we maintain, with a trustworthy report of Christ's sayings and promises; and, taking it to be a fact that Christ said what is attributed to Him in the Gospels, we further maintain that Christ's promises to the Apostles and their successors in the teaching office include the promise of such guidance and assistance as clearly implies infallibility. Having thus used the Scriptures as mere historical sources to prove that Christ endowed the Church with infallible teaching authority it is no vicious circle, but a perfectly legitimate iogical procedure, to rely on the Church's authority for proof of what writings are inspired."

Yes, but that is referring to papal infallibility. When it is talking about the Apostles and their successors, the "successors" are the popes.

Smalcald is claiming innerancy and infallibillity for the entire "true Church" as he calls it. Neither that nor papal infallibility are biblical.

[kari21]

Smalcald is claiming innerancy and infallibillity for the entire "true Church" as he calls it. Neither that nor papal infallibility are biblical.

Esp. since the Popes have been correcting each others doctrines for ages!

[Guest]

"That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:15-18

But Christ is the head of this Church and specifically founded this true Church, no it can't be wrong unless Christ its leader is wrong

Like I said, it is not a biblical teaching and so far, you have made no attempt to show the scripturally of it. There is nothing in the Bible that declares the "true Church" to be inerrant or infallible. If there is, please post the Scriptures that say so.

Having thus used the Scriptures as mere historical sources to prove that Christ endowed the Church with infallible teaching authority

Casting Aside The Pure Words Of God As A Mere Historical Source

Elevating The Musings Of Sinners As Supreme Authority And Daring To Call It Good

Now THAT Is An Interesting Teaching For This Christ-Centered Bible Believing Ministry

WHAT THE CHRIST SAID

Church? - Grace

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8-9

Church? - The Word

"Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you." John 15:3

Church? - The Real PAPA

"And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven." Matthew 23:9

Church? - Men Who Strut It Over The Sheep

"So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate." Revelations 2:15

Church? - Men Who Add To The Word Of The LORD

"Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you." Deuteronomy 4:2

Church? - Men Who Are Ashamed Of Jesus And Of His Word

"Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels." Mark 8:38

Church? - The LORD And The Great Throne

"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:11-15

Church? - The LORD And The Great City

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son." Revelation 21:1-7

Church? - Salvation Is His Name

"Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:10-12

Church? - The True Light

"That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." John 1:9-14

Church? - Jesus

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6

What Is This "Church"

What Is This "Church" If It Tries To Steal The Glory Of God And His Authority

What Is This "Church" If It Attempts To Enslave The Kids Of Grace Into Its Works Of Vanity

What Is This "Church" If It Mocks The Living Word Of The Christ And Even The Words Of Peter As Just A Reliable Historical Source

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:" 1 Peter 1:18-19

'Vain Conversation Received By Tradition", Did The Holy Spirit Ever Nail It Or What!

Dear One Please Pick Up The Bible And Ask God To Show You The True LORD Jesus And Read The Gospels.

The Holy Spirit Teaches The Church (Not Man) And He Is Sure To Come Upon Those Who Truly Seek Jesus.

Be Blessed Beloved

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Joe

[nebula]

Ignored again. Let me repeat myself. . .

but the true eternal Church is of Christ alone as its head and can never be wrong.

Smalcald, I am seriously not understanding this theology of yours.

All I know is that the only time I have heard the phrase "true church," it is spoken by people belonging to some cult group who claims that they are the true church (the rest of us are heretics).

But let me ask this - have you read Paul's account of when he rebuked Peter? Was Paul wrong for rebuking Peter, or was Peter in the wrong and deserving the rebuke? So, which one of them was not a part of the true church, then? (For if both were, how could one of them have been wrong, by your theology)