Guest shiloh357 Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 No, I never said that at all? You never answered my question, you just asked another? Because I'm confused by what you are saying and was asking for clarification. I am still not understanding your argument. When the Lord met Abraham, did He know how many righteous people were then currently existing in Sodom and Gomorrah or not? Because when Abraham asked Him "If there be?" several times the Lord replied, as many times "If I find?" ["And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes"], which indicated to me that He was going down to see if that something which was reported to Him, something he was not aware of, did not know. actually was happening, and if not, He said "I WILL KNOW." God goes Himself, or He sends messengers throughout the whole of His vast creations to find out for Him what He wants to know, the same as the head of any other organization would be likely to do, so that plans may be made and actions can be taken accordingly to further His plan for man, which He does know from beginning to end, and which He will bring to fruition. Examples of such agency constantly reporting to God can be found in all these passages (Gen. 18:21-22; Dan. 10:13-21; 11:1; 12:1; Zech. 1:7-11; 6:1-8; Matt. 18:10-11; Heb. 1:14; 2:2; Rev. 1:1; 7:1-3; 8:2-13; 9:1; 14:6-20; 15:1-8; 16:1-21; 18:21; 22:6, 8-9, 16). 1st, "I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know" (Gen. 18:21). Abraham askes several times? will thou kill the rightious with the wicked? 2nd. "And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes" (Gen. 18:26). No He didn't know how many were there, if any at all or He would have said to Abraham, there are no rightious there! But Hazard, this is not pertaining to God knowing the future. Now you are saying that God does not know what is happening NOW. God, according to you, would not really know how sinful the city of Las Vegas is unless He sent an Angel down. So if God does not know how sinful they really are, maybe He doesn't know how sinful I am and maybe I don't have to be accountable to Him in all things, since I can do things without Him knowing. That is the unscriptural conclusion that your position leads to. This is the problem with face-value interpretations like yours. Instead of the Bible actually being able to speak for itself, it is no lonher God's Word but is now subject to the whims of people like you who want to mold to shape what you want to believe. God knew very well how wicked Sodom and Gommorah were and He wanted Abraham to intercede for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted February 8, 2008 Share Posted February 8, 2008 QUOTE Shiloh wrote: Sure, not prob. For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6) The phrase "everlasting father" in Hebrew is "avi ad" and it is better translated as "Father of eternity." It uses the term father, not in a paternal sense, but the sense of origin. It is the same way we refer to Alexander Graham Bell as the "father" of modern telecommunications. In the same Jesus is referred to as the father, the creater of "eternity." The word "ad" in Hebrew is often seen in phrases like "l'olam v' ad" which means "forever and ever." It is an emphatic means of referring to the eternity future. Jesus is is the father of eternity, including all the ages of this earth and all of eternity future as revealed to us in Scripture. Jesus is the author of eternity, and thus the "architect" of the ages, and that is indisputable, biblical fact. Our current age is only one part of "eternity." The Bible reveals a God who stand outside time, and all of creation. I think the phrase everlasting father means just what it says. That the son is like the father being everlasting, from eternity past, never having a beginning, nor an end. Sorry, but that is not what the Hebrew text says. It does not say Jesus "is like" the Father. It says Jesus is the Father of Eternity. I realize that intellectual suicide is just easier for you, but the fact is that I speak and read Hebrew and I am right and you are simiply wrong. The text in Hebrew says what it says, and all you can do is play theological gymnastics with Word of God. The KJV is good, but it is not perfect and it not completely without flaws. You Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted February 9, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.92 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted February 9, 2008 Actually, it doesn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted February 9, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.92 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted February 9, 2008 Oh yeah, and since you keep avoiding what I mentioned before, I will ask again - You say that God is the Lord of the here and now. But in Scripture we see that God is called: "Who was, Who is, and Who is to come." What does that say about God in terms of the past and the future? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 9, 2008 Share Posted February 9, 2008 God knew very well how wicked Sodom and Gomorrah were and He wanted Abraham to intercede for them And Maybe To Teach Us Knuckle-Heads To Pray For Sinners No Matter How Bad It Looks The Whole Bible Is A Guide To Godly Living "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works" 2 Timothy 3:16-17 And The Whole Bible Shows Us The LORD Jesus "Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God" Hebrews 10:7 It Does Not Say Man Instructs God "Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding" Job 38:1-4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted February 11, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.92 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted February 11, 2008 I really don’t feel like having a discussion of what astrophysicists define time as or even the dictionary. The dictionary definition is varied and unusable for our purposes. The physicists definition is too technical and still lacks the key element. To me, a study of God’s world and all his creation can’t be done without considering God in it. That’s what you have whenever secular scientists and professionals get involved. Neither of those is going to come close to what God has revealed and that is not much description at best. Still, I would rather discuss what the Bible has to say in regard to God’s view of reality any day. This tells me that you are refusing to define time so that you can make it whatever you want it to be in order to support your view. But still as I have mentioned two or three times already - In the Scripture, God is called "Who was, who is and who is to come." What do you see that to mean? Even if God were not limited by time, you do admit that we are. We live in the present, not the past and not the future. How is it that God can see us living and doing things in the future if we are restricted by “linear time” and not omnipresent? How can a finite person be in the present and also living in the future and the past, all at the same time? We are confined by a lot of things that God is not confined by. Just because I can't wrap my puny, limited mind around it doesn't make it invalid. It is funnythat you are rebuking me for using human intellect and reason for supporting my point, and yet here you are doing the same! nebula wrote: Unred said: "Actually, it doesn't put God in subjugation to time. It says that God's activity of thought and creation are what makes up the motion that we perceive as time." It says that . . . where? Would you please provide the Scripture that claims this? Read this and notice that it is God's activity of thought by which he creates and this creation is divided into periods of time, or what we perceive as time, nights and days: Genesis 1 . . . Well, although that is an interesting way of looking at things, our nights and days are marked by the Sun, which wasn't created until day 4. So what are evening and morning of days 1-3? It can't be the time we live in! For they are not marked by our evening and our morning. Did you see anywhere in this account of all that God created that he created time itself? There is no mention of Him creating the water or the land, either - they were both just there. Does that mean God did not create the water? That He did not create the land? Time is like the life of God, which is eternal, it has no beginning. Again, if you could show me a Scripture that states point blank that "God is time," the way it says, "God is love," or "God is good," I will concede. As it is, your presentations have been to milk Scriptures that were speaking of something else to form this theology - which is often a dangerous thing to do. But how do you reconcile your two statements: Time is like the life of God, which is eternal, it has no beginning. Did you notice that it is the activity of God creating things that begins what we perceive as time? How can time be both eternal with no beginning and yet begin with God's activity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAZARD Posted February 11, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 11 Topic Count: 320 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 6,830 Content Per Day: 0.84 Reputation: 3,570 Days Won: 1 Joined: 02/16/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted February 11, 2008 " You are the one with the burden of proof. So far, you and Hazard stand alone in your false teaching. The rest of us choose to believe the Bible". False teaching? Thats only an opinion given by persons, and thats fine, even Christ stood alone in His day, unbelieved by the masses and the churchleaders to the point of being killed, and the only proof He gave was to rise from the grave as He said He would, and even Thomas disbelieved to the end, including millions today. And Paul being accused of heresy, (not that we are being accused, so far), answered "But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: Lets not forget that unred typo and I do believe in Jesus Christ and in the Bible and maybe we have an insite on this doctrin some, not all others have not reached yet? A couple of questions? "In the beginning [literally, by periods or ages] God created the heaven [Hebrew, heavens] and the earth," Scripture does not say "Six thousand years ago God created the heavens and the earth," as is generally taught by man. Does anyone know just when the beginning was? If anyone does know, then they know more than God as revealed. If no one knows just when the beginning was then it stands to reason that we just do not know and therefore, we should not teach that the beginning was 6,000 years ago. As far as any man knows it could have been six billion years ago. The first three words, "In the beginning" in Gen. 1:1, are also in John 1:1. " In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." I should add as well; "The same was in the beginning with God" (John 1:2) to hammer home the point I am making. Are these three verses of Scriptures linked? Common sense should tell us YES! Could the universe of which the Scriptures speak as being thus; " the heavens cannot be measured and the host of heaven cannot be counted" (Jer. 31:37; 33:22-25), be true? Then if the Scriptures be true, the material universe is vast beyond human conception, and as God has existed from all eternity, "In the Beginning was the Word etc.," (John 1:1), and "In the beginning God created, etc., (Gen. 1:1), it is hard to concieve that He only decided a few millenniums ago to do something, and begin creating something that is unmeasurable an unmeasurable time ago, six thousand years ago. We know time exists. Who can answer these questions? When was "In the beginning God created?" and "In the beginning was the Word?" At what point in time, if it never existed untill it was created, did the Eternal God create time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Biblicist Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 Knuckle-Heads Hey, quit talking about me like that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 The topic was actually about the omniscience of God and the most glaring evidence for my view is that God doesn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 False teaching? Thats only an opinion given by persons, and thats fine, even Christ stood alone in His day, unbelieved by the masses and the churchleaders to the point of being killed, and the only proof He gave was to rise from the grave as He said He would, and even Thomas disbelieved to the end, including millions today. jesus was believed by the masses. It was the religious leaders that hated Him and put to trial in secret on account of fear that the people would rise against them because the people thought Jesus to be a prophet. And Paul being accused of heresy, (not that we are being accused, so far), answered "But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: If you believed the law and the prophets, you would believe in the omnipresence and omniscience of God. "In the beginning [literally, by periods or ages] God created the heaven [Hebrew, heavens] and the earth," Scripture does not say "Six thousand years ago God created the heavens and the earth," as is generally taught by man. Does anyone know just when the beginning was? If anyone does know, then they know more than God as revealed. If no one knows just when the beginning was then it stands to reason that we just do not know and therefore, we should not teach that the beginning was 6,000 years ago. As far as any man knows it could have been six billion years ago. That doesn't matter. I don't know when the beginning was because I was not there. God was there, and He existed before the beginnning as well. There was never a time in eternnity past, that God was not. How long did it take to create the universe? 6 days. Were those counted as we count them? I don't know, but that does not matter in the grand scheme. The Bible is not a science book, and there is more to consider than the length of the creative process. When was "In the beginning God created?" and "In the beginning was the Word?" At what point in time, if it never existed untill it was created, did the Eternal God create time? None of us were there. Try asking more reasonable questions that can be answered definitively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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