time, times, half a time

[Fraught]

an excerpt from a book i ran across today called 'behold the beast': (especially note the part i have bolded) what say you?

1. (KJV) Daniel 10:1 In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a thing was revealed unto Daniel, whose name was called Belteshazzar; and the thing [was] true, but the time appointed [was] long: and he understood the thing, and had understanding of the vision.

You can Yahoo confirmation of the first year of Cyrus in Babylon to be 536 BC or the third year of Cyrus to be 533 BC

Toward the end of this prophecy we read:

(KVJ) Daniel 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that [it shall be] for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these [things] shall be finished.

Jews - both Messianic and non-Messianic - translation of the Hebrew idiom "time, times and an half" is somewhat different than most of us Christians may have been taught. Below is the above verse from a version of the Tanach:

Daniel 12:7. And I heard the man clad in linen, who was above the waters of the river, and he raised his right hand and his left hand to the heavens, and he swore by the Life of the world, that in the time of [two] times and a half, and when they have ended shattering the strength of the holy people, all these will end. Link to chabad.org (After all, what would Jews know about Hebrew idioms? :-)

If a time is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a time:

2-1/2 "times" = 2500 years. Then 2500 - 533 = 1967 The restoration of the Jews to, and end of the Gentile control of, the holy city, Jerusalem. The end of the "shattering the strength of the holy people". Is this a one "time" wonder?

[nebula]

Wow - that's interesting!

I'm interesting in hearing what others may say, if they have any understanding of the matter.

[Fraught]

Wow - that's interesting!

I'm interesting in hearing what others may say, if they have any understanding of the matter.

so am i. but not getting much input here, i guess.

[rollinTHUNDER]

If a time is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a time:

2-1/2 "times" = 2500 years. Then 2500 - 533 = 1967 The restoration of the Jews to, and end of the Gentile control of, the holy city, Jerusalem. The end of the "shattering the strength of the holy people". Is this a one "time" wonder?

There's only one small problem:

you have changed the word "day" to "time".

Psalm 90:4

For a thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.

2 Peter 3:8

But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

[Fraught]

If a time is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a time:

2-1/2 "times" = 2500 years. Then 2500 - 533 = 1967 The restoration of the Jews to, and end of the Gentile control of, the holy city, Jerusalem. The end of the "shattering the strength of the holy people". Is this a one "time" wonder?

There's only one small problem:

you have changed the word "day" to "time".

Psalm 90:4

For a thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night.

2 Peter 3:8

But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.

no. see the following:

Daniel 7:25

'He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.

Revelation 12:14

But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

[Guest man]

a time is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a time:

I would like to see the verse from which this came.

Thanks.

[Sion]

an excerpt from a book i ran across today called 'behold the beast': (especially note the part i have bolded) what say you?

1. (KJV) Daniel 10:1 In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a thing was revealed unto Daniel, whose name was called Belteshazzar; and the thing [was] true, but the time appointed [was] long: and he understood the thing, and had understanding of the vision.

You can Yahoo confirmation of the first year of Cyrus in Babylon to be 536 BC or the third year of Cyrus to be 533 BC

Toward the end of this prophecy we read:

(KVJ) Daniel 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that [it shall be] for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these [things] shall be finished.

Jews - both Messianic and non-Messianic - translation of the Hebrew idiom "time, times and an half" is somewhat different than most of us Christians may have been taught. Below is the above verse from a version of the Tanach:

Daniel 12:7. And I heard the man clad in linen, who was above the waters of the river, and he raised his right hand and his left hand to the heavens, and he swore by the Life of the world, that in the time of [two] times and a half, and when they have ended shattering the strength of the holy people, all these will end. Link to chabad.org (After all, what would Jews know about Hebrew idioms? :-)

If a time is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a time:

2-1/2 "times" = 2500 years. Then 2500 - 533 = 1967 The restoration of the Jews to, and end of the Gentile control of, the holy city, Jerusalem. The end of the "shattering the strength of the holy people". Is this a one "time" wonder?

A Time, Times, and a half Time is three and a half years which corresponds with revelation 11's "42 months" or "1260" days.

Daniel 12

7 -it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.

The beginning of Daniel 12 tells us about the coming of the Great tribulation and the "time, times and half a time" tells us how long it will last.

[Richard_yaash]

an excerpt from a book i ran across today called 'behold the beast': (especially note the part i have bolded) what say you?

1. (KJV) Daniel 10:1 In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a thing was revealed unto Daniel, whose name was called Belteshazzar; and the thing [was] true, but the time appointed [was] long: and he understood the thing, and had understanding of the vision.

You can Yahoo confirmation of the first year of Cyrus in Babylon to be 536 BC or the third year of Cyrus to be 533 BC

If I may, the confirmation here while perhaps a good starting point, can not be deemed as irrefutable or uncontroversial. Anyone here who has ever studied cylindrics/calendrics/history is aware of this. They are simply a majority consensus. I have seen and read many "reliable" sources which place the date many years different. What I mean is, we can not pinpoint the date to a specific year beyond all question. I have regrettably witnessed many attempt to pin a specific year upon certain events in an attempt to 'force' it to fit their own desire(s)/interpretation(s).

Many years ago there was a 'paper' making the rounds of which I quickly scanned through but alas never had or made the time to look into it in great depth. This 'paper' made several points that may or may not have been valid or worthy of merit. I wish I knew where I had filed it away for later study, for now would perhaps be a good time to look into it. Anyway, this 'paper' called into question our current 'methods' and 'standards' of 'dating'. By as much as 200 years. Those who have studied history in depth, are all too aware of how problematic 'dating' can be.

Toward the end of this prophecy we read:

(KVJ) Daniel 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that [it shall be] for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these [things] shall be finished.

Jews - both Messianic and non-Messianic - translation of the Hebrew idiom "time, times and an half" is somewhat different than most of us Christians may have been taught. Below is the above verse from a version of the Tanach:

Daniel 12:7. And I heard the man clad in linen, who was above the waters of the river, and he raised his right hand and his left hand to the heavens, and he swore by the Life of the world, that in the time of [two] times and a half, and when they have ended shattering the strength of the holy people, all these will end. Link to chabad.org (After all, what would Jews know about Hebrew idioms? :-)

If we consider the LXX we (roughly) find in Daniel 12:7: "for a time of times and half a time". Another translation of the TaNaKh renders it: "after a period, periods and a half".

Depending upon the codex/manuscript used, there are some slight variations in areas. For the purposes of this, I shall use the "Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia" which is in accord in every 'jot' and 'tittle' of the "Masoretic Text" in these verses.

The transliterated Ivrit (Hebrew) of Daniel 12:7 is (and forgive me here, for my rudimentary knowledge of Ivrit has waned considerably in recent years of disuse): "ki le-mo`ed mo'adim o-khetzi".

'Mo'ed' comes from the root 'ya'ad' of which the Qal/root/simplest meaning is: to appoint/assign/designate. With the substantive prefix 'mem', the verb ya'ad meaning 'to appoint' becomes mo`ed, a noun meaning 'appointed' (time/place/etc.).

This is were I really notice how much my knowledge has waned for simple conjunctions and prepositions are no longer 'simple'. So with that in mind, I will stick with/use the most basic of rendering(s).

A rough word for word, albeit somewhat 'rigid' translation(s) could be:

That for-the appointed appointments and-half

That for-the time times and-half

What I see in that which you quote above and below, is that we have the insertion of both "of" and the obvious insertion of "[two]". The insertion of "[two]" is of no real consequence IMO. It does not change the pshat (plain/simple) reading of the text. More importantly IMO, we do not have a corresponding preposition from which "of" is translated/taken. As we shall see below, again, we do not have that I am able to see even in the LXX a corresonding preposition for "of".

As Greek still remains Greek to me <grin>, and my knowledge with regard to Greek is very limited:

Transliteration of the LXX: hoti eis kairon kairon kai hemisu kairou.

Perhaps someone reading this thread with some knowledge of Greek can help us with the above. Hoti, eis, kai and hemisu are easy, however my knowledge with regard to Greek declensions is as naught. Thus I am unwilling to comment with regard to kairon (omicron), kairon (omega) and kairou.

Now to be fair, we should briefly consider Daniel 7:25:

If we look to Daniel 7:25, the LXX (roughly) renders it: "for a time and times and half a time". Another translation of the TaNaKh renders it: "until a time, and times and half a time".

Transliteration of these is:

Aramaic; `ad_`iddan ve-`iddanin u-phelag `iddan

LXX; heos kairou kai kairon kai ge hemisu kairou

A rough word for word of the Aramaic could be:

Until_time and-times and-half time

Very simple overall IMO.

As `iddan only occurs only within Daniel chapters 2 through 7, we do not have a broad comparison base for it. There are only 11 occurrences of `iddan (in various forms) that I am aware of.

The LXX seems very straightforward and clear to me in this instance, however again, I shall leave the Greek for another to perhaps help shed light on this for us.

As it may have some comparison value: Transliteration of Revelation 12:14;

ekei kairon kai kairous kai hemisu kairou

Here, I have not as of yet seen anyone translate it such as: there a time ***of*** times and half a time.

We simply have: There a time and times and half a time.

If a time is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a time:

2-1/2 "times" = 2500 years. Then 2500 - 533 = 1967 The restoration of the Jews to, and end of the Gentile control of, the holy city, Jerusalem. The end of the "shattering the strength of the holy people". Is this a one "time" wonder?

Now, perhaps I am not completely comprehending this. However if we read the beginning of Daniel chapter 12 the above does not IMO completely fit. For those 'asleep' have not as of yet 'awaken'. Either that, or I have dreadfully missed something. It is, as we see all too often, an 'attempt' to make a prophecy fit a specific (though not necessarily correct) understanding. OTOH: I too am still asleep right now <grin>.

To sum up: IMO we have both the innocent as well as the guilty on all/every side of the fence(s). It matters not what culture/belief system we are a part of/hold too, in each of them we have those who will and/or do see what they want to see. Our biggest problem, are translational issues, so much is lost in translation. Not only that, a translation directly reflects/is 'flavoured' by the beliefs of the translator(s). The math above IMO is perhaps incorrect, for there is no 'zero' year which throws the above off by one year, that however is really neither here nor there.

My conclusion at this point until further evidence is presented: That presented was/is not the best rendering/understanding of the verse in question. Further, I do not see that it presents enough merit or validity for further consideration at this point/time. I am open however should someone be able to present some evidence of the merit/validity to the above.

As for theory partially presented (or misrepresention) regarding the thousand years are a day, while I do see the line of reasoning, I do not see the substitution of mo`ed for yom as valid or viable currently. So I must agree with rollinTHUNDER's objection.

While I have not really addressed anything, perhaps this may be some food for thought.

Richard

[Fraught]

food for thought, yes. thanks richard. may i sum up your post as agreeing that the 'time' referred to may not conclusively mean one year? i am aware of it being the current understanding of the verse, of course.

unfortunately, i am one that does not just stop at a meaning that i like and not consider further revelation. we don't want to forget that 'the book was sealed up until the time of the end'.

i hope that more enlightenment comes the way of those of us who are interested.

[nebula]

Although I don't know if it is possible to "predict" the future by calculating a date through what is written in prophecy, I do know that people have been able to take the words in Daniel (I forget the chapter, but the passage deals with "the prince being cut off from the people" - a prophecy referring to Jesus' death) have been able to calculate the exact date Jesus was crucified.