in a box

[Emily~Anne]

Hey, I googled it too...wanted to see what there was too offer

Isn't it interesting Biblicist how people look at things so differently...while I, attempting to help people embrace the fact that God is bigger than our minds can contain, have managed to find a perfect example of what I mean by putting God in a box...OP, search out what they can find to justify and shut out the concept and will search out something that will support why they can't possibly accept anything different or that they are incapable of understanding...Please read it in its entirety, it really is very good.

(disclaimer: I am not Catholic I am of no denomination)... however, having read the article, if this Rev came to my town I would certainly do what I could to get some good nourishing meat from his sermon. As he has a pretty good concept of the very largeness of God the Father and the small minds of man.

http://www.rmbowman.com/catholic/s980516h.htm

"God of the Universe ... or God of the Box?"

Sermon for Sixth Sunday of Easter, cycle C, May 16, 1998

by Most Rev. Dr. Robert M. Bowman,

Presiding Bishop, United Catholic Church

Acts 15: 1-2, 22-29

Psalm 67: 2-8

Revelation 21: 10-14, 22-23

John 14: 23-29

When I was a young, impressionable teenager and a recent convert to the Roman Catholic Church, a priest giving some kind of mission or revival told a story that made quite an impact on me.

He said that a teenage couple were out on a date and made love in the back seat of the car. As they were driving toward their homes, the boy commented, "You know, that

[jackie d]

amen...and AMEN

[Guest Biblicist]

I too saw this "article" I'll give you the reasons I did not post it, and it's NOT because it was given by a Catholic.

But again for the sake of argument, let us say that the boy had indeed freely and willingly and deliberately committed what he knew at the time to be a mortal sin. Is it not possible that his seemingly boastful pronouncement of his guilt was really an attempt to hide inner remorse? Isn't it possible he had repented?

In short, isn't it presumptuous and judgmental for the priest to pretend to know the eternal fate of this young boy? How does he know that boy went to hell? Isn't it possible that God, who (according to our teachings) is infinitely merciful, found a way to save that young man? (If, of course, he ever really existed.)

It is dangerous, I think, for anyone (clergy or not) to pretend to know that God has condemned any particular human soul. Because of God's promises, we express confidence that the souls of our dear departed rest with God in heaven. God has given us the church and the sacraments, and has promised salvation to those whom we have entrusted to him.

But do we really expect the merciful and loving God to obey us when we consign someone to hell for breaking our rules? If God really paid attention to the anathemas hurled back and forth by the churches over the years, heaven would be a very empty place.

I believe this priest is teaching universalism, which is against God's word. If the boy committed a sin without repentance and acceptance of Jesus Christ, he went to Hell. He got no other chance.

Evangelical Protestants often teach that no one can be saved unless they explicitly accept Jesus as their personal Lord and savior. According to this view, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Unitarians, Jehovah's Witnesses, and such are going to hell, to say nothing of agnostics and atheists. At various times, Roman Catholics and Orthodox have mutually condemned each other, as have Roman Catholics and Protestants. For hundreds of years, it was official Roman Catholic doctrine that there was no salvation for those outside the jurisdiction of the Pope of Rome.

Do we really believe that God is so limited, so weak, so ineffective that he can't find a way to save Abraham Lincoln even though he was Protestant, or to save Mother Teresa even though she was Roman Catholic, or to save Mahatma Ghandi even though he wasn't Christian at all?

And here he is definately teaching that there is more than one way to Heaven, not "just" Jesus Christ. God's word teaches us that there is only one to the Father. Not many.

If believing that, repentance for our sins and salvation through Jesus Christ is the only way to Heaven, is putting God in a box, then it is a box that he has put Himself into!

[jackie d]

I too saw this "article" I'll give you the reasons I did not post it, and it's NOT because it was given by a Catholic.

But again for the sake of argument, let us say that the boy had indeed freely and willingly and deliberately committed what he knew at the time to be a mortal sin. Is it not possible that his seemingly boastful pronouncement of his guilt was really an attempt to hide inner remorse? Isn't it possible he had repented?

In short, isn't it presumptuous and judgmental for the priest to pretend to know the eternal fate of this young boy? How does he know that boy went to hell? Isn't it possible that God, who (according to our teachings) is infinitely merciful, found a way to save that young man? (If, of course, he ever really existed.)

It is dangerous, I think, for anyone (clergy or not) to pretend to know that God has condemned any particular human soul. Because of God's promises, we express confidence that the souls of our dear departed rest with God in heaven. God has given us the church and the sacraments, and has promised salvation to those whom we have entrusted to him.

But do we really expect the merciful and loving God to obey us when we consign someone to hell for breaking our rules? If God really paid attention to the anathemas hurled back and forth by the churches over the years, heaven would be a very empty place.

I believe this priest is teaching universalism, which is against God's word. If the boy committed a sin without repentance and acceptance of Jesus Christ, he went to Hell. He got no other chance.

Evangelical Protestants often teach that no one can be saved unless they explicitly accept Jesus as their personal Lord and savior. According to this view, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Unitarians, Jehovah's Witnesses, and such are going to hell, to say nothing of agnostics and atheists. At various times, Roman Catholics and Orthodox have mutually condemned each other, as have Roman Catholics and Protestants. For hundreds of years, it was official Roman Catholic doctrine that there was no salvation for those outside the jurisdiction of the Pope of Rome.

Do we really believe that God is so limited, so weak, so ineffective that he can't find a way to save Abraham Lincoln even though he was Protestant, or to save Mother Teresa even though she was Roman Catholic, or to save Mahatma Ghandi even though he wasn't Christian at all?

And here he is definately teaching that there is more than one way to Heaven, not "just" Jesus Christ. God's word teaches us that there is only one to the Father. Not many.

If believing that, repentance for our sins and salvation through Jesus Christ is the only way to Heaven, is putting God in a box, then it is a box that he has put Himself into!

in bold above...Your comment shows how you closed yourself off to his words. He isn't suggesting that we come to God any way other than the Son, he is suggesting that just because Ghandi wasn't a "Christian" that He didn't have the ability to save him or that He didn't save him...we have no clue what went on between God and Ghandi and to assume that the man didn't get saved or wasn't saved is calling ourselves God.....

well I'm really happy you kept your mind open to what I have been saying and not closing it off to assume that you have all the answers of how God handles people on an individual basis. You have done nothing more than prove my point.

I have no clue about all the different isms people hang on each other, not interested in knowing them and I cling to God the Father, and have come to Him through the Son....the rest of it is really between the two of us and not for one person to think that I am right or wrong in how I think, feel, believe in God's infinite power and His awesome Grace. I follow the basic and foundational doctrine of Christ and I spit from my mouth man made doctrine.

You posted your point about how you felt about the "box" I posted mine.....nough said.

[Emily~Anne]

So basically you are saying that muslims, hindus and etc., without giving up their muslim or etc. religion can and do believe and trust in Jesus as their personal Savior too?

[jackie d]

So basically you are saying that muslims, hindus and etc., without giving up their muslim or etc. religion can and do believe and trust in Jesus as their personal Savior too?

no I am saying that it isn't for us to decide who gets saved and who doesn't... and that it isn't for us to decide if they do it right or not....even the man on the death bed who knows not Christ until the last breath and accepts Jesus is saved and doesn't have to go through all the isms and doctrine and other stuff that man puts on man in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.......God IS all powerful and will do it HIS way.

and dare I say that many who think they are saved might want to make sure of it.....the pharisees thought they had it all together too and found they were a major point of disdain for Jesus. just something for everyone to think about.......

[Emily~Anne]

So basically you are saying that muslims, hindus and etc., without giving up their muslim or etc. religion can and do believe and trust in Jesus as their personal Savior too?

no I am saying that it isn't for us to decide who gets saved and who doesn't... and that it isn't for us to decide if they do it right or not....even the man on the death bed who knows not Christ until the last breath and accepts Jesus is saved and doesn't have to go through all the isms and doctrine and other stuff that man puts on man in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.......God IS all powerful and will do it HIS way.

and dare I say that many who think they are saved might want to make sure of it.....the pharisees thought they had it all together too and found they were a major point of disdain for Jesus. just something for everyone to think about.......

No it isnt, but that doesnt mean we are not to recognize what is truth and what isnt. I now muslim beliefs are not truth. I also know that it really is possible fo a muslim to goto heaven, as long as he DOES ultimately put his faith in Jesus and repent of his false beliefs before he dies. Once he dies it's too late.

Luke 23:39-43 (New International Version)

39One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"

40But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."

42Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[a]"

43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

another thought....

Matthew 7:21 (New International Version)

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

I think it is dangerous to live as we please, claiming belief in Jesus as our Savior, with the plan of repenting at the last minute. Just not a good idea. Jesus is to be both our Savior and LORD.

[jackie d]

No it isnt, but that doesnt mean we are not to recognize what is truth and what isnt. I now muslim beliefs are not truth. I also know that it really is possible fo a muslim to goto heaven, as long as he DOES ultimately put his faith in Jesus and repent of his false beliefs before he dies. Once he dies it's too late.

agreed...especially on the last point. And we as Christians who know this truth should be speaking the truth....but I stand firm in the belief that it is through simple doctrine and foundation that Christ left us with....the rest is in His hands.

I like the scripture you chose...wonderfully and beautifully formed in awe and fear of the King Jesus Christ, I believe in Him and the Father who sent Him....I have repented of my past life and live to the best of the ability He has given me....He loves me, He loves you and He loves all....He would that none should perish..Oh how He has longed to gather us under His wing as a mother hen with her chicks. To protect, heal and nurture.....

I remain open to all possibilities that the Lord will have who He wants and there isn't a man or woman out there that should attempt to put boundries on how it comes about and what happens after ward......the possibilities are infinite just as He is!!!!

[Emily~Anne]

Can you back up what you say wth God's word?

Matthew 7:13-14 (New International Version)

The Narrow and Wide Gates

13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Important to remember, the man on the cross who joined Jesus in paradise that day, he was not a believer until that day. You and I are believers TODAY, and we are called to live like it!

[jackie d]

Also, the man on the cross who joined jesus in paradise that day, he was not a believer until that day. You and I are believers TODAY, and we are called to live like it!

so what does living like it look like to you? have I somehow said something that makes you believe that I don't live like it? Looking at me do you somehow see me not living like what you think it is supposed to look like?

There is a narrow gate to enter and if people think that they are walking the narrow path and others are not they aren't paying very close attention to themselves now are they?

looks like I may have been put back into a box again.... but I'll wait until you respond to make the final decision on that....

and the scripture you would like "My ways are not your ways and My thoughts are not your thoughts" lets go back and read the book of Job...God pretty much sums up the whole of my point.

Or better yet...

Jhn 21:19 This He spoke, signifying by what death he would glorify God. And when He had spoken this, He said to him, "Follow Me."

Jhn 21:20 Then Peter, turning around, saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following, who also had leaned on His breast at the supper, and said, "Lord, who is the one who betrays You?"

Jhn 21:21 Peter, seeing him, said to Jesus, "But Lord, what about this man?"

Jhn 21:22 Jesus said to him, "If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me."