Function of the Law in Salvation

[Guest shiloh357]

Justification does not mean

[Pilgrim7]

Dear Brother Shiloh,

I would suggest you read the totality of Scripture, before you come and accuse others of spin. I realize that your belief in OSAS demands that you discount the following Scriptures and the Parables of Jesus that speak to the possibility of man losing his 'initial' justification and thus eternal life. Many are called, which means chosen, which means justified, but only few are chosen, few in the judgment have retained their 'initial justification' and been sanctified and made holy. But I can understand your contempt for 'keeping God's Commandments'. You see in the 'new Birth, one is given a 'delight to do His will, for God has written His commandments in his/her heart. This I know, not just from the Scripture, but from personal experience.

Mat 12:36

But I say to you, That

every idle word

that

men shall speak

, they shall

give account

thereof in the

day of judgment.

12:37

For

by your words

you shall

be justified

(this would be final justification which happens on Judgment day, which is still future),

and

by your words

you shall

be condemned.

It is quite obvious why you wouldn't like this one.

Rom 2:12

For

as many as have sinned

without law shall also

perish

without law:

and

as many as have sinned

in the law shall be

judged

by the law;

2:13

For

not the

hearers

of the law are

just

before God

, but the

doers

of the law

shall be

justified

(ultimately, in the judgment.)

You see only those who confess and repent of sin in the process of Sanctification, retain their justification, and still have it on Judgment Day. I realize that you do not understand this, which is a shame.

Gal 2:16

Knowing

that a

man is

not justified

by the works of the law,

but by the

faith of Jesus Christ,

even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be

justified by the faith of Christ,

and

not by the works of the law:

for by the

works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

(initial justification)

2:17

But

if

,

while

we

seek

to be

justified

by Christ, (but they have already been justified by Christ)

we ourselves also

are found sinners,

is therefore

Christ the

minister of sin

?

(that would be the indwelling Christ)

God forbid.

2:18

For

if

I

build

again

the

things

(sins)

which

I destroyed

,

I make myself a

transgressor

(again and need to be forgiven for the new transgression which would be continuing justification, for, as you say, justification is the forgiveness of sin, but not just forgiveness).

It is a very simple concept to understand, and it definitely needs no spin.

Jas 2:20

But

will you know,

O vain man, that

faith

(ongoing faith which works by Love for it delights in the will of God)

without works

is dead?

(It can be

dead

from the

beginning

, thus never being j

ustified

, or it can

wither

and

die

through

presumptuous

,

unrepented of

sin and thus be

lost

at any time, thus

losing

the

justification

that comes with the faith)

2:21

Was not Abraham

our father

justified by works

(

on going

or

continuing

justification which

occurred long after

His

'initial justification'

),

when

he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

(this work

demonstrated

his faith and

proved

that he was

walking

in his

justification

that he

received

by faith)

2:22

See how

faith wrought with his works,

and by

works

was faith

made perfect

?

(works

perfect

our faith and

establish

our

'initial justification'

)

2:23

And the

scripture was

fulfilled

which said,

Abraham believed God,

and it was

imputed

unto him for righteousness:

and he was called the

Friend of God.

2:24

You see then how that

by works

a man is

justified

(

ongoing

justification, which fulfills or demonstrates his

'initial justification'

is still

intact

),

and

not by

faith only.

There is more to Salvation that just the beginning. Beginning is nice, but the prize goes to those who run the race and finish the course. With your stance on the non necessity of Commandment keeping, it is easy to understand why you don't understand the preceding verses. There is more to Christianity than just doctrine. On judgment day, God examines the works of all, to see if their actions match their profession. This is a very simple concept to grasp. One's works demonstrate the quality of their faith, whether is real and demonstrates the 'initial justification' of Christ dwelling within, or whether it is just doctrine, and empty talk.

You see all things come from Christ dwelling within, living His righteous life through the believer. If Christ dwells within, then one not only is accounted righteous, but he also is made righteous, and fully equipped for living righteously. As long as Christ lives within, one is justified by His presence, has His eternal life through his presence and hears and follows His voice from within and on judgment day will be vindicated and finally and eternally justified for by faith which works by love, for he has been sanctified, has finnished the course.

You see, your doctrine of justification does not include the death of the 'old man' and the indwelling of Christ in the heart of the believer. It is quite a stretch at best and borders on blasphemy at worst, to say that the indwelling of Christ in the heart does not make a man righteous. What do you think makes a man a 'new creation'? Your logic and reasoning is quite flawed. Does the indwelling of Christ make a man unrighteous? He was unrighteous without the indwelling of Christ. What you are saying is that the indwelling of Christ leaves him the same as he was before, thus still and 'old man'.

God bless,

Dennis

[Emily~Anne]

Justification does not mean

[Pilgrim7]

Amen Emily~Anne,

I appreciate your contribution, as I have made this point over and over again in this thread. Obedience does not merit anything, but disobedience, not confessed and repented of will definitely merit and earn us something, the wages of sin, which is/are death.

You see the obedience that one renders when Christ dwells within is not of their own merit, for it is Christ working in and through them. Nothing is earned by this obedience, it is just proof of being saved, proof that Christ is working from within the 'born again' believer and that he/she has been 'justified'.

When one is converted, He is justified, forgiven for all past sin only and then indwelt by Christ. This is his 'initial justification' and he stands clean before God. Any future sin needs to be confessed and forgiven for him/her to continue in justification. On Judgment Day, he/she will be judged, examined to see if they have been faithful to God and confessed and forsaken all known sin. Thus they would be 'finally' justified as noted in the last post.

Here is the Scriptural support for 'initial' or 'beginning' justification with no spin and no merit:

Rom 3:23

For

all have sinned,

and

come short

of the glory of God;

3:24

Being

justified

freely

by his grace through the

redemption

that is in Christ Jesus:

3:25

Whom God has set forth to be a

propitiation through faith

in his blood, to

declare his righteousness

for the

remission of sins

that are

past

,

(#4266-only sins

previously committed

before coming to Christ which makes it '

initial

' justification)

through the forbearance of God;

3:26

To declare, I say, at this time

his righteousness:

that he might

be just,

and the

justifier

of him which

believes in Jesus.

There is no merit in this, nor in the resultant obedience that follows, for it is Christ living in and through the 'believer', and thus it is all His merit. Why would anyone be 'against obedience' and speak so disparagingly of 'Commandment keeping' and 'Commandment keepers' when Jesus does not. This is not aimed at you, but there are some who speak of 'Commandment keeping' in derision, as though 'keeping God's Commandments' was actually the real sin, when God speaks a 'curse' on unrepentant 'Commandment breakers' and will hold them in derision. The 'believer' having been 'justified' and 'indwelt' by Christ now has a work to do through Christ, and Christ gets all the glory, not the 'believer', as you have stated and I have stated numerous times in various posts.

2co 7:1

Having

therefore

these

promises

('justification' and the 'indwelling Christ'),

dearly beloved,

let US cleanse ourselves

from

all

filthiness

of the

flesh

and

spirit,

perfecting

holiness

in the fear of God.

It can't get much clearer that this. There had better be 'ongoing' justification, for if there isn't, then all are doomed, for I know of no one who has not sinned since they were 'converted'.

Rev 14:12

Here is the

patience

(#5281-endurance, perseverance)

of the

saints

(#40- God's children, the holy or sanctified ones):

here are they that

keep

the

Commandments

of God,

and the

faith

of Jesus.

God bless you and I hope that your are able to read the entire thread.

Dennis

[Pilgrim7]

Now that we are back on track, I will repost this for those who may have missed it:

Letter versus Spirit #6

Here in the 6th Commandment, the difference between the 'Letter' and the 'Spirit' is easily seen, and the 'bare minimum' of the 'Letter of the law' exposed for its inability to save or make one righteous.

The Letter of the Law- - The 6th Commandment

Exo 20:13

You shall not kill.

(murder)

This Commandment is quite simple to understand. We are not to take the life of another. Here even human wisdom tends to line up with God on this point. The penalty for breaking this command is just the same as that for breaking any other. The wages for sin is death. Thus the wages for murder or for bearing false witness is the same in God's justice, and here is where human reasoning departs radically from that of God as does the 'Spirit of the Law'.

The Spirit of the Law

In the Spirit of the Law, we not only don't murder people, but we love them as we love ourselves, and seek to lead them to 'abundant life', yes eternal life. Thus again we see that the 'Spirit of the law' necessarily includes the 'Letter', expanding it immensely.

Love your enemies instead of murdering them:

Mat 5:38

You have heard it said, an eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:

5:39

But I say to you, that

you

resist not

evil

(those who do evil to you):

but whoever shall strike you on the right cheek,

turn to him

the other also………..

5:43

You have heard that it has been said, you shall love your neighbor, and hate your enemy.

5:44

But I say to you,

Love your enemies

,

bless

those that

curse you

,

do good

to those that

hate you

,

and

pray for

those who

despitefully use you

,

and

persecute you

;

Take no thought for yourself:

Lu 12:22

And he said to his disciples, Therefore I say unto you,

Take

no thought

for

your life

,

what

you shall eat;

neither for the body,

what you shall put on.

The Christian gives up His life:

Mat 16:25

For whoever will

save

(hold on to, preserve)

his life

(the Old Man and his sinful deeds)

shall

lose it

(in the Lake of fire):

and whoever will

lose his life

(be crucified with Christ)

for my sake shall

find it

(preserve it life eternal).

Crucified with Christ:

Rom 6:6

Knowing

this,

that

our

old man

is

crucified

with him,

that the

body of sin

might be

destroyed

,

that henceforth

(from now on)

we should not serve sin.

6:7

For

he that is

dead

is

freed from

sin.

Now Christ lives within and through the believer:

Gal 2:20

I am

crucified

with Christ: nevertheless

I live

;

yet

not I,

but Christ

lives in me

:

and the

life which

I now live

in the flesh I live by the faith of

(complete dependence upon to live righteously)

the Son of God,

who loved me, and gave himself for me.

2:21

I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the (letter) law

(here we see what grace accomplishes, the righteousness that comes by being dead with Christ and Christ living His righteous life within and through the believer which is what the sure result of 'saving' faith),

then Christ is dead in vain.

Old man with His affections and desires is dead:

Gal 5:24

And

they that are Christ's

have crucified the flesh

(Notice that is is past tense, has already happened in the 'New Birth')

with the

affections

and

lusts

.

5:25

If we

live in the Spirit,

let us also

walk in the Spirit.

2co 5:17

Therefore

if any

man be in Christ, he is a

new creature

:

old things

have

passed away

;

behold,

all things

have

become new

.

5:18

And

all things

are of God,

who has reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

New Creation Dead to the world:

Gal 6:14

But God forbid that I should glory, save in the

cross of our Lord Jesus Christ,

by whom the

world

is

crucified

unto me,

and

I

unto the

world

.

(all of the world is not of the Father)

6:15

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision avails any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a

new creature

(indwelt by Christ).

Wow!! Doesn't that take your breath away. No wonder Righteousness can't come by the 'Letter of the Law'. Just not murdering your enemy falls millions of light years short of the Righteousness of Christ bestowed upon the 'believer' by faith. It makes one want to exclaim as did the disciples, 'then who can be saved', but praise the Lord, all things are possible with God for the 'believer' 'can do all these thing through Christ who dwells in him' but only through Christ who dwells in him/her for he/she is a 'new creation' in Christ Jesus and it all comes by faith. So again we see that Jesus not only upholds the 'letter of the Law', but expands it beyond the comprehension and ability of the 'carnal man' to fulfill.

God Bless,

Dennis

[Guest shiloh357]

I would suggest you read the totality of Scripture, before you come and accuse others of spin. I realize that your belief in OSAS demands that you discount the following Scriptures and the Parables of Jesus that speak to the possibility of man losing his 'initial' justification and thus eternal life.

There is no such thing as "initial justification." That is a concept you are penciling into the Bible. The problem is that you are introducing subjetive and false definitions to biblical terms to make those terms fit your theology.

Justification as it is used in the Greek pertaining to our standing with God is a legal or forensic term and is in fact the same word for "righteous" or "righteousness." The problem is that you are confusing how the Bible treats SINS with how it treats the sinful condition into which we were born. Justification does not pertain to what we do, it pertains to what we are. It is the difference between understanding the work of the blood vs. the work of the cross. Justification does justify us with respect to the sins we commit, but rather with respect to the sinful condition into which we each are born as human beings who are all tainted with original sin.

Justification, is a legal term. It means, "to declare righteous." Or more to the point, it means "to declare innocent." There is nothing "initial" about it, and it has nothing to do with what you do. It a judicial declaration made upon every believer, not on the basis of personal merit, but on the basis of faith in the work of Christ on the cross. It is a credit to your account according Romans 4:25. Righteousness is imputed to us, but not imparted to us. We are not "made" righteous, but we are only declared "righteous" at this time.

Justification is never tied to the law itself. Quite the opposite. Paul says in Romans 3:28, that by the works of the law shall NO FLESH be justified in His sight. Paul does not qualify that. He does not say refer to any concept of "initial justification." Justification has nothing to do conduct. That does not mean that God does not expect a certain kind of conduct and behavior from us. It does not mean that we are not to obey God commandments, and it does not mean that we don't have to avoid sin and live in holiness. All it means is that such things are not tied to justification.

Many are called, which means chosen, which means justified, but only few are chosen, few in the judgment have retained their 'initial justification' and been sanctified and made holy. But I can understand your contempt for 'keeping God's Commandments'. You see in the 'new Birth, one is given a 'delight to do His will, for God has written His commandments in his/her heart. This I know, not just from the Scripture, but from personal experience.

Well first of all "chosen" does not mean "justified." Again, that is not biblical, as those are two completely unrelated concepts with respect to salvation.

Furthermore on fatal flaw that exists in your position is that you feel if we don't agree with your position that keeping the law is necessary for salvation that we are holding the God's commandments in contempt. You treat your position as being equal with the Bible and to disagree with you, is to disagree with the Bible. It is the typical arroagance you spit at people who have the temerity to disagree with you. Furthermore, I also take note that you imply that I am not saved as you contrast my misperceived "contempt" for keeping God's commandments with the "delight" in keeping the commandments that accompanies the new birth, thus implying that I am not a recipient of the new birth.

I have no contempt for keeping God's commandments at all. My contempt is reserved for false teachers and false prophets like yourself who attempt to place others under an oppressive yoke of legalism by pererthing God commandments into a system of works-based righteousness that undermines the purpose of Christ's finished work on the cross.

Mat 12:36 But I say to you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

12:37 For by your words you shall be justified (this would be final justification which happens on Judgment day, which is still future), and by your words you shall be condemned.

I am always amused by your attempt to pencil in your own doctrine into the word of God while claiming it is wrong to listen to "man's opinions." Funny how people like you expect your opinions to be heard, but you have no time for anyone else's.

Matt. 12:36, 37 pertain to Jesus' enemies, if you follow the context. Jesus is not saying that people lose their justfication on the basis of their words, but that their words will testify agaisnt them on the day of judgment and in this particular passage, Jesus was addressing those who spoke "idle" or injurous words against the Holy Spirit, and who blasphed the Holy Spirit. Jesus is telling these religious leaders who blasphemed that their words stand to condemn them in the day of judgment, in contrast to their own perceived righteousness. Their shallow attempts at piety, and religiousity would not stand in the light of the testimony of their blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

It is quite obvious why you wouldn't like this one.

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified (ultimately, in the judgment.)

Again, you are not getting the context right. What Paul is talking about is the universality of sin pertaining to both Jews and Gentiles. The discussion in Romans chapter two follows on the heels of what Paul stated about the depravity of the pagan/Gentile world in Rom. 1:18-32. In chapter two he turns to those who boast was in their knowledge of the law, and their Jewish heritage. Paul informs them that the bad new is not over yet, and he begins to deal with those who are relying on the law and their heritage to afford them favor with God.

When Paul refers to the "doers" of the law being justified, he is refering to those who do the law perfectly. The only way a person a can keep the law perfect enough to be justified before God is to do so without the stain of original sin, and that is simply not possible. Even Christians in this life still bear that stain and will do until they are no longer inhabiting their current mortal bodies. Even if you kept EVERY commandment to the letter every day from now on, it would be a worthless enterprise where justification is concerned as your observance will be still be tainted with the sin you were born into.

Paul is actually showing the futility of expecting the law to justify us. Paul is addressing the problem of Jewish unbelievers whose faith in the law, and how they are closer to God for it than a pagan.

You see only those who confess and repent of sin in the process of Sanctification, retain their justification, and still have it on Judgment Day. I realize that you do not understand this, which is a shame.

The process of sanctification is never linked to justification before God in the Bible. You are attempting to manufacture those links, but they simply don't exist. Justification is a one time judicial event that is based on the past work of Christ.

In Romans 5 it reads:

16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17For if by one man

[Guest shiloh357]

Continued from above...

You see, your doctrine of justification does not include the death of the 'old man' and the indwelling of Christ in the heart of the believer.

You are right, "my" doctrine of justification does not contain those things, but that is because those thing don't apply to the concept of justification. Justification where rightstanding with God is concerned, is a judicial/legal concept, not not a practical concept.

The death of the old man, like justification is a product of Christ's death on the cross. You need to understand the difference between the work of the blood and the work of the cross. Jesus blood forgives us for the sins we commit. Jesus death on the cross is what brings about both justification and our deliverance from the old man. Your mistake is that you are trying to claim that justification brings effects the death of the old man, but that is not true. Justification and the death of the old man are two results of the same act of obedience of Jesus on the cross.

The same is true with the indwelling of Christ. The indwelling of Christ is not the means by which we are justified, and justification does not effect the indwelling of Christ in us. That is again another product of of the work of the cross in that Christ lives within us in the person of Holy Spirit, when we accept Jesus as Savior and Lord of our lives.

Justification, death of the old man and the indwelling of Christ are three benefits we derive from the cross.

It is quite a stretch at best and borders on blasphemy at worst, to say that the indwelling of Christ in the heart does not make a man righteous.

It does not make us righteous. It is the death of Jesus on the cross that makes us righteous when we place our faith in Jesus. The indwelling of Christ is what empowers us to live out that righteousness. It does not produce righteousness rather it is the benefit of having our faith placed in Christ's finished work at Calvary. Our rightousness is squarely based upon faith in Christ and His grace. It is based upon his one time act of obedience.

Does the indwelling of Christ make a man unrighteous? He was unrighteous without the indwelling of Christ. What you are saying is that the indwelling of Christ leaves him the same as he was before, thus still and 'old man'.

I never said any such thing. In fact, I have said quite the opposite many times on this board.

The fact is that you are trying to peddle a works-based salvation just so your false doctrine of "Sabbath is necessary for salvation" clap trap. Others might not be able to see it, but I can. You are teaching and preaching a false gospel that diminishes the finished work of the cross, and exalts human effort.

[Pilgrim7]

Wow brother Shiloh,

You are in in good form today. Such a long post to counter a couple of Scriptural verses which show the truth of Justification, Wow, the cross, does one thing, the blood another. It was one act, that of laying down His life, all of which was encompassed in the crucifixion. It takes idle theologians to develop such involved, convoluted concepts from such a simple demonstration of love which saves, justifies, and sanctifies and will eventually glorify the 'believer' .

I will respond in detail later, for It is God's Holy Sabbath Day and I am off to worship Him, with a small, independent, group of 'Sabbath keepers', on His Holy Sabbath Day. And no, I am not justified by this, but am just obeying one of His Command, which you have stated are necessary. You see, if I profane His Holy Sabbath Day, calling it 'common', then I would sin, and need to be justified for that sin, by confessing to Jesus that I had sinned, and being forgiven, which is justification, for that particular sin which occurred since I was Initially justified when I came to Christ.

And just a reminder, this thread is about 'the Ten Commandments' and your 'sermonizing' is not going to derail the topic. Good try.

If you don't understand 'justification' just believe what the words teaches, that when one comes to Christ he is forgiven only of his past sins, not as the theologians teach, past, present and future sin. It is only 'Commandment' breakers who would attempt to twist and spin the Scriptures to cover their disobedience to God and His Commandments.

But I see that you view yourself as an 'expert' on this and you are quite expert on the teachings of man.

God bless you brother, and as usual, I love you, even if your responses amuse me.

[Guest shiloh357]

You are in in good form today. Such a long post to counter a couple of Scriptural verses which show the truth of Justification,

No, I am just countering your assertions as to what those Scriptures mean. Your views on those Scriptures do not constitute biblical truth.

Wow, the cross, does one thing, the blood another. It was one act, that of laying down His life, all of which was encompassed in the crucifixion.

You need read Romans 1:1-5:11 to understand the work of the blood and Romans 5:12-8:32 to understand the work of the cross. It is was not a "theologian" who developed those two concepts but rather it was the apostle Paul who dilineated the difference in Romans chapter 8.

I have news for you Pilgrim, there is a lot more to this issue than your unteachable, arrogant, unChristlike, stuck-up spirit is willing to make room for.

I will respond in detail later, for It is God's Holy Sabbath Day and I am off to worship Him, with a small, independent, group of 'Sabbath keepers', on His Holy Sabbath Day. And no, I am not justified by this, but am just obeying one of His Command, which you have stated are necessary. You see, if I profane His Holy Sabbath Day, calling it 'common', then I would sin, and need to be justified for that sin, by confessing to Jesus that I had sinned, and being forgiven, which is justification, for that particular sin which occurred since I was Initially justified when I came to Christ.

You are contradicting your own heretical teachings. You have already stated that keeping the law is necessary for "ongoing justification." So in keeping the Sabbath, you feel you are securing your "ongoing justification." Your's is a "gospel" of works and has nothing to do with the pure gospel of salvation by grace through faith as preached by Paul.

You can keep 1,000 Sabbaths, and that will never cover for your arrogance. In fact, your attitude is the anti-thesis of what observing the Sabbath is about, and completely nullifies any good that could have come out of what you do.

I have never said that God's commandments are not necssary. I simply said that their observance is not nessary for maintaining or securing salvation. One does not earn any "salvation" points with God. The fact that you view that assertion as equivilant to saying they are unnecessary demonstrates that you view the commandments as necessary and binding for eternal life, and that one cannot be saved if they do not keep the law. Again, your's is a works-based system of righteousness which is anathema to the gospel.

If you don't understand 'justification' just believe what the words teaches, that when one comes to Christ he is forgiven only of his past sins, not as the theologians teach, past, present and future sin.

I understand justification far better than you do. You are applying justication to sins we commit, but justification pertains to the sinful condition from which we are delivered upon placing our faith in Christ. Justification is the one-time declaration that we are "not guilty" and are declared righteous (in right-standing) before God, as if Adam never sinned. Justification does not deal with what we do. That is what the blood of Jesus does on a daily basis. The work of the cross is a one time event because Jesus died only once. The blood, however is something that is applied daily, that is why we confess our sins daily. It does what the blood of animals could not do in that it cleanses our conscience of all unrighteousness (Hebrews 10:22, 1 John 1:9).

But I see that you view yourself as an 'expert' on this and you are quite expert on the teachings of man.

That is an argument that cuts both ways. Funny how when it is something you disagree with, it is suddenly as "teaching of man." The fact is that you are simply espousing SDA doctrine and are too arrogant to admit that it is just your point of view. Your entire "teaching" is predicated on pretending that your views are equal to the Bible and you are unwilling to entertain the possibility that you are mistaken on any point. Anyone with the teremity to disagree with you is a "commandment breaker." If the truth were told, in your view, everyone on this board is a commandment breaker as most do not see Sabbath observance as necessary for salvation and do not feel the need to keep it on the same day you do. You don't have the kajones to admit it publicly on the board, but if we follow your teachings to their logical conclusion, that is what we arrive at.

God bless you brother, and as usual, I love you, even if your responses amuse me.

No, you don't live me. Not only do display unwavering arrogance, but you hide behind a fake "spiritual" facade. I don't receive "love" from disengenuous frauds. You can keep such nonsense to yourself. I can see through your fakery.

[nanasimmons]

David,

I can honestly say that I have both enjoyed and agree 100% with the last 4 of your responses on justification....

Blessings,

Michelle