Richard_yaash Posted February 28, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 940 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/10/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted February 28, 2008 Rev. 17:5 - THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS I fail to see how NYC can be considered "the mother" of harlots As do I Nebula. IMO it limits possible 'interpretations'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazra Posted February 28, 2008 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 25 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/29/2008 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 28, 2008 Mazra - Unless my eyes skipped over it, there is one element about Babylon that hasn't been addressed, and does put a monkey-wrench in your theory. Rev. 17:5 - THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS Rev. 17:6 - I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. I fail to see how NYC can be considered "the mother" of harlots, and I fail to see how NYC is "drunk with the blood of the saints." As for 9-11, there's another problem. Rev. 18:21 - Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, "Thus with violence the great city Babylon shall be thrown down, and shall not be found anymore. Last I checked, New York City is still kicking and thriving. Hi nebula, I appreciate your input. It is important to test things in light of G-d's word. This is good! New York City long before Las Vegas was sin city. In the book Gotham, a history of New York City, the city was known for its prostitution dating back to the early 1800's and before. Back in the mid-1800's there was even an abortion clinic in the city, the first of its kind. It was closed down, but this was the starting place, the "mother" of it. I could go on and on about such beginnings as the porn industry that started in and around New York City. The motion picture industry started there. The city fits the term "Mother of Harlots" better than any other on earth, for so much of the world's mass media and the ills that come with it, owes its birth place to New York City. Rev. 17:6 I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus. (NIV) The "drunk with the blood of the saints and those who bore testimony" simply could mean that the city contains many saints and bearers of the testimony of Jesus. This is a Christian city, so there are many saints and bearer of G-d's word there. I am sure many of them died of on 911. Some versions refer to the word "martyrs, which comes from the Greek word Martus." The word has two meanings, the bearer of testimonies like in a witness, and those that die violently for their belief. The NIV chose the former meaning. Your version chose the latter meaning. Unfortunately neither of us knows which one the Apostle John intended. When there are these kinds of uncertainties it is best to stick to the clearer verses of which there are many that point to New York City as noted in my original posting. And finally the destruction of the city by a mill stone has not yet occurred. Revelation 18:21 is an unfulfilled prophecy, something of which must be understood for its ultimate destruction maybe near. The call to leave her is an important call. I beleive the mystery was intended to be solved prior to this event as a warning to the believers within her. Shalom, Mazra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted February 28, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.75 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.94 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted February 28, 2008 New York City long before Las Vegas was sin city. In the book Gotham, a history of New York City, the city was known for its prostitution dating back to the early 1800's and before. Back in the mid-1800's there was even an abortion clinic in the city, the first of its kind. It was closed down, but this was the starting place, the "mother" of it. I could go on and on about such beginnings as the porn industry that started in and around New York City. The motion picture industry started there. The city fits the term "Mother of Harlots" better than any other on earth, for so much of the world's mass media and the ills that come with it, owes its birth place to New York City. OK, I can see how you can put those pieces together, but I am still in disagreement over this making NYC "the Mother of Harlots." Basically, it sounds like you are playing around with what the word "harlot" means in order to weave it into the interpretation. After all, Paris and London had their share of harlotry going on long before NYC did. To say that the spirit of Babylon lives in NYC - and Hollywood - I wouldn't disagree with. Yet that claim that NYC is the great harlot . . . requires taking some stretches. Rev. 17:6 I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus. (NIV) The "drunk with the blood of the saints and those who bore testimony" simply could mean that the city contains many saints and bearers of the testimony of Jesus. This is a Christian city, so there are many saints and bearer of G-d's word there. I am sure many of them died of on 911. Some versions refer to the word "martyrs, which comes from the Greek word Martus." The word has two meanings, the bearer of testimonies like in a witness, and those that die violently for their belief. The NIV chose the former meaning. Your version chose the latter meaning. Unfortunately neither of us knows which one the Apostle John intended. When there are these kinds of uncertainties it is best to stick to the clearer verses of which there are many that point to New York City as noted in my original posting. Again, I have to disagree. Yes, there were Christians who died that day. But there were many non-Christians who also died that day. Likewise, those who died did not die for their faith. They died for being "at the wrong place at the wrong time" so to speak. Bin Laden and his cronies weren't going after the "those who bore the testimony of Jesus; they were going after America. I appreciate your desire to put the pieces together, as we all do. However, the evidence indicates that the time for revelation of these words has not yet come. Recall that the Harlot is riding the Beast (many believe the Beast she rides is the same Beast that comes out of the Sea in an earlier chapter. Clearly, this has not been manifest yet. Therefore, Mystery Babylon's fall can not be manifest yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazra Posted February 28, 2008 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 25 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/29/2008 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 28, 2008 It has been my assumption from studies that Babylon is somewhere in the Middle East, Iraq, Iran, but most definetly a predominate Muslim country. I think part of our problem when trying to interpret prophecy is thinking it is centered around the US. I have been guilty of this myself and while I think America is very much corrupt and evil, I think its more likely its focused in the middle east. Hi Pearl_Butterfly, First of all I agree with you. The vast bulk of Bible prophecy is centered around Israel. The interesting thing is that the vision the Apostle John received refers to the harlot city as Mystery Babylon. The words Mystery Babylon refers to something to be discovered; and something like the Babylon of old but different, something possibly new; possibly something that did not even exist during his time. I sincerely beleive the beast will be a Muslim and come from a muslim country. Revelation 17:16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. (NIV) If the beast is a Muslim then it will not hate itself. It will hate something different that is getting in its way, like the power and wealth of the United States. New York City is the largest city in the wealthiest country the world has EVER known. The World Trade Center towers were a very visible edifice of this tremendous wealth and influence. The key verse in the prophecy is the following: Revelation 17:18 The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth." This is a bold idea, a city that rules over the kings of the earth. How could this be so? Until the United Nations it could not be so. But the UN "is so" and makes rulings over all the nations of the earth. Where is the UN located? NYC of course! I know that I will not convince everybody or even one. But I feel the need to put this out there again. I believe the pieces to the mystery points to New York City. It is up to each individual to read for themselves and say, "That makes sense" or "What a bunch of baloney." Many have already made up their minds one way or another, and anything I write will likely not change their mind. I have made up my mind! I believe New York City is Mystery Babylon and I letting you and all who take their precious time to read the post see why I believe as I do. Shalom, Mazra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard_yaash Posted February 29, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 940 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/10/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted February 29, 2008 Recall that the Harlot is riding the Beast (many believe the Beast she rides is the same Beast that comes out of the Sea in an earlier chapter. Well said Nebula. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazra Posted February 29, 2008 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 25 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/29/2008 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 29, 2008 (edited) Mystery Babylon is the false church. Rev 17 and 18 is the same woman. She does not know she is the false church. Edited February 29, 2008 by Mazra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazra Posted February 29, 2008 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 25 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/29/2008 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 29, 2008 (edited) OK, I can see how you can put those pieces together, but I am still in disagreement over this making NYC "the Mother of Harlots." Basically, it sounds like you are playing around with what the word "harlot" means in order to weave it into the interpretation. After all, Paris and London had their share of harlotry going on long before NYC did. To say that the spirit of Babylon lives in NYC - and Hollywood - I wouldn't disagree with. Yet that claim that NYC is the great harlot . . . requires taking some stretches. Hi nebula, We may have to agree to disagree. Though many cities in history could claim elements of the harlot, New York City was the birth place of some terrilbe things. As I mentioned before the first abortion clinic was in this city. Ironically it formed to cater to the large number of pregnant prostitutes in the city. This abomination alone is enough to give the city the title "Mother of Harlots and the abominations of the Earth." Abortion is the great killer of the innocent. We must know that G-d is very sad about this tremendous loss of life, and would be angry at any location that would begin such a foul act. But there is so much more. As previously mentioned the first motion picture studios started in the suburbs of New York. The first television transmissions originated there. New York City is the home of nine of the ten largest publishing companies in the world. It is the world's media capital. Sure! This city has given birth to many horrible offsprings of which Hollywood would be one. But that is what a mother does, she gives birth. The prophecy says the harlot is a city, and New York City is the mother of harlots. She fulfills the prophecy and fulfills it unlike any other city in the history of the world. Again, I have to disagree. Yes, there were Christians who died that day. But there were many non-Christians who also died that day. Likewise, those who died did not die for their faith. They died for being "at the wrong place at the wrong time" so to speak. Bin Laden and his cronies weren't going after the "those who bore the testimony of Jesus; they were going after America. I appreciate your desire to put the pieces together, as we all do. However, the evidence indicates that the time for revelation of these words has not yet come. Recall that the Harlot is riding the Beast (many believe the Beast she rides is the same Beast that comes out of the Sea in an earlier chapter. Clearly, this has not been manifest yet. Therefore, Mystery Babylon's fall can not be manifest yet. First, I beleive the blood of the saints and those who bore testimony to Jesus part of the prophecy is nothing more than an indication that the harlot city will have many believers within it, and not some great martydom as some English translations would indicate. Rev. 18:4Then I heard another voice from heaven say: "Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues G-d's people are within this city. New York City is a predominantly Christian city. It also has the second largest Jewish population of any city in the world. Finally, I beleive the beast is a representation of earthly empires that have risen against Israel. The harlot riding the beast is not unlike a rider riding a horse. Does a horse wish to be ridden? Most likely not. When the Apostle John saw this vision, he was astonished: Rev 17:6....When I saw her, I was greatly astonished. 7Then the angel said to me: "Why are you astonished? I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the beast she rides, which has the seven heads and ten horns. Before this point, it is all imagery, a vision. After this point in the prophecy the angel explains the meaning, and it is from this point that the clues are provided. The angel later explains the relationship between the harlot and the beast. Rev17:16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. The beast hates the harlot. I believe this beast's present manifestation is Islam and the peoples that are devoted to it. Osama Bin Laden is seen by many in the Muslim world as their king. I believe he fulfills the prophecy of the eighth king. Rev 17:11 The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction. Osama Bin Laden's hatred was manifested on 911. What a large loss of innocent life on a single day. There is much still to be fulfilled. But the beast has long ago risen from the sea. Six heads have already come and gone. We are at the seventh head and the eighth king. I know that there will be many that will reject what I write. But the time is near. Prophecy has been fulfilled. Shalom, Mazra Edited February 29, 2008 by Mazra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazra Posted February 29, 2008 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 25 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/29/2008 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 29, 2008 (edited) Mystery Babylon is the false church. New York certainly does not fit the bill, since, as has been noted, it has not been destroyed. Lots of people try to draw some tie-in to 911 and end-times events, but the truth is, it was pretty much B.A.U. a couple of months after 911. New York was certainly not destroyed, merchants and captains of ships did not mourn from far off. New York can also certainly not fit the profile of being "drunk with the blood of the Saints." Hi Cobalt1959, You are right! There is one more event to come. Rev 18:21 Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder the size of a large millstone and threw it into the sea, and said: "With such violence the great city of Babylon will be thrown down, never to be found again. I beleive 911 was the manifestation of the hatred by the beast. It is not the beast that will destroy the city for its ultimate destruction will come from G-d. Revelation 17 is a prophecy about the attack by the beast, and Revelation 18 is more about this coming destruction by G-d. That is why this is so very important! Rev 18:4Then I heard another voice from heaven say: "Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues; None of the clues found in Revelation 18 point away from New York City. It talks of the city being a center of commerce and shipping. New York City truly fits this. It has a vast seaport and it is the largest city in the wealthiest nation the world has ever known. I appreciate your input. It provides for an opportunity to respond. Shalom, Mazra Edited February 29, 2008 by Mazra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Timer Posted February 29, 2008 Group: Soapbox - Members Followers: 2 Topic Count: 68 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 962 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 52 Days Won: 1 Joined: 05/18/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/11/1932 Share Posted February 29, 2008 (edited) Mystery Babylon is the false church. Rev 17 and 18 is the same woman. She does not know she is the false church. Edited February 29, 2008 by Old Timer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazra Posted February 29, 2008 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 25 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/29/2008 Status: Offline Author Share Posted February 29, 2008 (edited) I am not "entrenched" in my belief and am willing to change my mind IF some interpretation seemed more accurate. Mystery Babylon is a woman just as the Church is everywhere biblically a woman. The True Church is the Bride of Christ. Mystery Babylon thinks she is the bride of Christ. (Says in her heart - sit a queen Edited February 29, 2008 by Mazra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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