KJV Bible and other translations of the Bible

[Richard_yaash]

Richard, you are not doing your side any good making statements like that about a translation put out by a cult.

And how many times have I said:

I do not use it.

I do not recommend it.

[Richard_yaash]

Being written specifically for one single denomination puts it squarely outside the term of "flavour." It's an agenda translation.

Completely understood. It is merely another of many.

As I have stated:

I do not use it.

I do not recommend it.

[Guest shiloh357]

What is pathetic Shiloh is to say nothing but act like you are giving real answers. For instance, where are the many historical innacuracies in the Apocrypha? Where are your examples? Also, where does the Apocrypha contradict the Bible?

• Ecclesiasticus 3:30 claims that giving alms to the poor atones for sin. This goes completely against what the Bible says about atonement through the blood of Christ alone.
  
  
• Ecclesiasticus 25:24 teaches that sin had its beginning with woman and we die because of her. This runs in contradiction to the New Testament which says that we die because of Adam.
  
  
• 2 Maccabees teaches that prayers for dead people can bring them salvation even though they have passed on. This goes against the New Testament, which claims there is no salvation beyond the grave for anyone who dies without Christ.
  
  
• The book of Judith claims that the army attacking Israel is that of Nebuchadnezzar but the army is also stated as being Assyrian in this book. Nebuchadnezzar was not Assyrian. He was Babylonian. Secondly, Judith is wrong because it places Nebuchadnezzar as being a contemporary of Manasseh, when in fact, He was not. Judith is off by over 100 years, thus showing a grave historical inaccuracy.
  
  
• Tobit claims that Nebuchadnezzar took Ninevah of Assyria in battle. This is wrong. It was His father, Nabopolassar, who conquered Ninevah.
  
  
• The book of 1 Maccabees and 2 Maccabees carry two completely different accounts of the death of Antiochus Epiphanes. In 1 Maccabees he dies of intense remorse and grief. In 2Maccabees, he dies as a result of being eaten alive by worms as a Divine curse.
  

I could go on and on about inaccuracies and internal inconsistencies of the Apocrypha. For you to suggest that they don't exist shows that you really don't know this issue are indeed looking for any way out of the hole you have dug for yourself by making the ridiculous claim that the KJV is an "inspired" translation.

The only thing I can point to where someone might say there was a contradiction was a verse in one of the wisdom books concerning divorce.

Which shows why are not really qualified to even debate the issue. You are not studied on this at all.

You mention providing "divine testimony" to support my postion. Where is yours? Your idea of divine testimony is the testimony of the authors of the individual books.

No, my idea of having Divine testimony is the testimony given by the Divine Author of the Book itself. Like I said, my source of testimony comes from a book that is both Divinely inspired and wholly inerrant. I should not have to defend that position to someone who claims he is a Christian. I have the entire Word of God that shows how God inspired the Bible to be written. It is free of doctrinal, geographical, and historical error (unlike your beloved apocrypha).

You can keep repeating yourself about my so-called acts of desperation, and my so-called lack of divine testimony and supposed innacuracies and contradictions in the Apocrypha, but you haven't given me one real shred of evidence to believe anything you said is true. I either believe it by faith or I reject it.

It is just desparation. You cannot demonstrate any evidence whatsoever that the KJV is inspired so you try to tear down the belief in the inspiration of the Bible. It is not only desparate, it is unChristian. You have proven you don't know beans about the apocrypha, you are equally as ignorant when it comes to the nature and dynamics of inspiration.

[Guest shiloh357]

The point I made is that you are saying that the proof the Bible is the Word of God is the fact the Bible says it is the Word of God. I am saying that is not proof, and anyone with one ounce of common sense would realize that.

I have not said anything about proof. I was talking about evidnece, and there is a difference. I am not as loose with the words "proof" or "prove." I don't claim to be able to "prove" anything. My claim is that there is ample evidence to demonstrate that my position is not without merit. You are on this tangent claiming I can't prove anything as if that damages my position, but since I have not claimed to have any proof, are essentially trying to refute an argument I have not raised.

As far as your claims go concerning the Apocrypha, let's examine them. First you mention Ecc 3:30. I would point out that 1 Peter 4:8 says "charity shall cover the multitude of sins." In neither case are these verses implying that sins are washed away without the blood of Christ. You are really reaching with that example

I am not reaching at all. Peter is not talking about "charity" in the form of almsgiving. The word in the Greek refers to agape or "love." He is saying that love covers a mulitude of sins. The point Peter is making, if you care to examine his line of thought is that love causes us to overlook the faults of other people. Kind of the way parents love their children even when their children misbehave, or the way a spouse will overlook the character flaws of their husband/wife due to the love they have for them. Peter is telling his audience to have that kind of fervent love as it covers (sees beyond) personal character flaws. It is not saying anything similar to Ecc 3:30 which teaches that sin is atoned for by almsgiving to the poor.

Next you mention Ecc 25:24. According to 1 Timothy 2:14 "And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." All this is saying is that death came upon mankind because of the original sin, and had it not been for Eve giving the forbidden fruit to Adam, we wouldn't experience death.

Wrong. Eve was decieved, yes, but that is what makes what Adam did worse. Adam disobeyed not because He was decieved, but rather he did it in full knowledge of his disobedience. It is when Adam sinned that death came upon mankind. It clearly contradicts the teaching of Ecc 25:24

In the other examples, you failed to give the chapter and verse. It appears to me you simply got this information out of a book attacking the Apocrypha and posted it.

I was in a hurry, but here are the references I was working from.

As to the internally inconsistent accound of the death of Antiochus Ephiphanes here is the account from 1 Maccabees:

Now when the king heard these words, he was astonished and sore moved: whereupon he laid him down upon his bed, and fell sick for grief, because it had not befallen him as he looked for. And there he continued many days: for his grief was ever more and more, and he made account that he should die. Wherefore he called for all his friends, and said unto them, The sleep is gone from mine eyes, and my heart faileth for very care. And I thought with myself, Into what tribulation am I come, and how great a flood of misery is it, wherein now I am! for I was bountiful and beloved in my power. But now I remember the evils that I did at Jerusalem, and that I took all the vessels of gold and silver that were therein, and sent to destroy the inhabitants of Judea without a cause. I perceive therefore that for this cause these troubles are come upon me, and, behold, I perish through great grief in a strange land. Then called he for Philip, one of his friends, who he made ruler over all his realm, And gave him the crown, and his robe, and his signet, to the end he should bring up his son Antiochus, and nourish him up for the kingdom. So king Antiochus died there in the hundred forty and ninth year.

(1 Maccabees 6:8-16)

Here is the account from 2 Maccabees:

Then swelling with anger. he thought to avenge upon the Jews the disgrace done unto him by those that made him flee. Therefore commanded he his chariotman to drive without ceasing, and to dispatch the journey, the judgment of God now following him. For he had spoken proudly in this sort, That he would come to Jerusalem and make it a common burying place of the Jews. But the Lord Almighty, the God of Isreal, smote him with an incurable and invisible plague: or as soon as he had spoken these words, a pain of the bowels that was remediless came upon him, and sore torments of the inner parts; And that most justly: for he had tormented other men's bowels with many and strange torments. Howbeit he nothing at all ceased from his bragging, but still was filled with pride, breathing out fire in his rage against the Jews, and commanding to haste the journey: but it came to pass that he fell down from his chariot, carried violently; so that having a sore fall, all the members of his body were much pained. And thus he that a little afore thought he might command the waves of the sea, (so proud was he beyond the condition of man) and weigh the high mountains in a balance, was now cast on the ground, and carried in an horselitter, shewing forth unto all the manifest power of God. So that the worms rose up out of the body of this wicked man, and whiles he lived in sorrow and pain, his flesh fell away, and the filthiness of his smell was noisome to all his army. And the man, that thought a little afore he could reach to the stars of heaven, no man could endure to carry for his intolerable stink. Here therefore, being plagued, he began to leave off his great pride, and to come to the knowledge of himself by the scourge of God, his pain increasing every moment. And when he himself could not abide his own smell, he said these words, It is meet to be subject unto God, and that a man that is mortal should not proudly think of himself if he were God. This wicked person vowed also unto the Lord, who now no more would have mercy upon him, saying thus, That the holy city (to the which he was going in haste to lay it even with the ground, and to make it a common buryingplace,) he would set at liberty: And as touching the Jews, whom he had judged not worthy so much as to be buried, but to be cast out with their children to be devoured of the fowls and wild beasts, he would make them all equals to the citizens of Athens: And the holy temple, which before he had spoiled, he would garnish with goodly gifts, and restore all the holy vessels with many more, and out of his own revenue defray the charges belonging to the sacrifices: Yea, and that also he would become a Jew himself, and go through all the world that was inhabited, and declare the power of God. But for all this his pains would not cease: for the just judgment of God was come upon him: therefore despairing of his health, he wrote unto the Jews the letter underwritten, containing the form of a supplication, after this manner: Antiochus, king and governor, to the good Jews his citizens wisheth much joy, health, and prosperity: If ye and your children fare well, and your affairs be to your contentment, I give very great thanks to God, having my hope in heaven. As for me, I was weak, or else I would have remembered kindly your honour and good will returning out of Persia, and being taken with a grievous disease, I thought it necessary to care for the common safety of all: Not distrusting mine health, but having great hope to escape this sickness. But considering that even my father, at what time he led an army into the high countries. appointed a successor, To the end that, if any thing fell out contrary to expectation, or if any tidings were brought that were grievous, they of the land, knowing to whom the state was left, might not be troubled: Again, considering how that the princes that are borderers and neighbours unto my kingdom wait for opportunities, and expect what shall be the event. I have appointed my son Antiochus king, whom I often committed and commended unto many of you, when I went up into the high provinces; to whom I have written as followeth: Therefore I pray and request you to remember the benefits that I have done unto you generally, and in special, and that every man will be still faithful to me and my son. For I am persuaded that he understanding my mind will favourably and graciously yield to your desires. Thus the murderer and blasphemer having suffered most grievously, as he entreated other men, so died he a miserable death in a strange country in the mountains.

(2 Maccabees 9:4-28)

Tobit 14:15 is where we find the erroneous claim that Nebudchadnezzar took Nineveh.

Judith 1:7 is where we find the incorrect statement that Nebudchadnezzar is the King of Assyria. He was NEVER the King of Assyria.

2 Maccabees teachs that prayer for the dead will bring them salvation in this passage:

And upon the day following, as the use had been, Judas and his company came to take up the bodies of them that were slain, and to bury them with their kinsmen in their fathers' graves. Now under the coats of every one that was slain they found things consecrated to the idols of the Jamnites, which is forbidden the Jews by the law. Then every man saw that this was the cause wherefore they were slain. All men therefore praising the Lord, the righteous Judge, who had opened the things that were hid, Betook themselves unto prayer, and besought him that the sin committed might wholly be put out of remembrance. Besides, that noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forsomuch as they saw before their eyes the things that came to pass for the sins of those that were slain. And when he had made a gathering throughout the company to the sum of two thousand drachms of silver, he sent it to Jerusalem to offer a sin offering, doing therein very well and honestly, in that he was mindful of the resurrection: For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should have risen again, it had been superfluous and vain to pray for the dead. And also in that he perceived that there was great favour laid up for those that died godly, it was an holy and good thought. Whereupon he made a reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin. (2 Maccabees 12:39-45)

[Guest shiloh357]

Here is the bottom line Shiloh. I do have answers I can give to the things you mentioned from the Apocrypha,

No you don't, as evidenced your treatment of 1 Peter 4:8 and your attempt justify blaming Eve for the fall of man when the Bible lays the blame squarely on Adam.

The evidence I have presetned as to why the the Apocrypha does not qualify for canonicity into the Bible is only the tip of the iceberg. You dont know what you are talking about.

I also stated that this kind of argument could easily go back and forth, probably till the Lord returns with no resolution,

What kind of argument??? This whole thing started because you claimed that the KJV is an "inspired" translation. When confronted with what criteria has to be met for something to be "inspired" and your complete lack of evidence, and inability to demonstrate that the KJV translation possesses such evidence to qualify as being inspired, your response to pretend that we cannot defend or demonstrate the inpired nature of the orginal text or the original human authors, which is simply not true. The fact is, there is an entire field of apologetics dedicated to demonstrating both the inspired quality and inerrancy of the Biblical text and its original human authors.

If you want me to take your latest post apart section by section, I will do it. If you are satisfied to agree to dissagree over the matter, that is fine too. It is really not that hard.

If what I have seen from you so far, is any indication, there is nothing you have to present that is much of a threat.

To give you a quick example, take the verse about the dead. There are those who are literally dead, and those who are dead in tresspasses and sins. It comes down to how you take it.

First of all, the passage I cited from Maccabees clearly indicates that it is talking about the physically dead, who also died in a less than righteous condition. Secondly, even if you could make the case that it is only referencing someone who is spiritually dead, it would still be a heresy to claim that prayers for such people will bring them atonement with God. It is clear from the text, that the prayers themselves were seen as the vehicle of atonement. There really is no way you can take the text as written and try to reconcile it with the Bible without engaging in all kinds of theological gymnastics especially when it comes to having redefine the terms in order to do so.

If one is looking for a reason to dispute something, they will give it the most damaging meaning they can, and if they are looking to validate something, they will give it a meaning that is more plausible.

Except, I am doing neither. I am just going off of the plain sense presented by the text.

At the same time, I didn't become a believer in the Bible because someone spent time showing me evidence it was real.

That is beside the point. I never said the evidence would convince anyone to get saved. My point was that the evidence provides us with the ability to demonstrate that our faith is not a blind faith based on claims that cannot be verfied, historically, archeologically, and so forth. It is foregone conclusion that no one can be argued into the Kingdom. That, however, does not diminish the need for, and value of, said evidence.

Though I can defend the majority of the Apocrypha from a lot of the smears against it, I do not recognize it as fully inspired, so in that we agree.

1. Claiming the Apocrypha is internally inconsistent, is not a "smear." It is demonstratable point of fact, and it shows why the Apocrypha was not included into the canon in the first place.

2. Our "disagreement" over the Apocrypha has nothing to do with whether or not it is inspired, but whether or not it can demonstrated that the Apocrypha does not deserve to be included in the canon. You rejected the idea that I could come up with any against it because you were trying to justify not having any evidence to support your claim that the KJV is inspired. This is all about you defending wounded pride and trying to save face in a debate that you are losing.

[Guest Biblicist]

<sniff sniff> Do I smell a Soapbox Debate coming on?

[GymRose]

I have to say from watching this thread evolve from the start I have found it quite an educational experience........... Both in content and debate.

Very interesting

[Aleksander]

I have to say from watching this thread evolve from the start I have found it quite an educational experience........... Both in content and debate.

Very interesting

I see your point. Seconded.

But I havent got a chance to read all the posts yet, so I'll have to come back to that.

[Guest Biblicist]

I just got a book from my Nephew's library last night called The King James Only Controversy ~ Can You Trust The Modern Translations? by James R. White. I have yet to begin reading it, but I'll let you know what I think when I do. My Nephew said it's an "easy read".

[Friarbob]

I have studied this issue of bible translations for several years ans so far my conclusion is : Don't rely on any one single version they all have their weaknesses and strengths I always read the King James Version along with my New International Version and my New King James Version. I have seen no valid reason to cast aside any of these translations.