Old Timer Posted March 3, 2008 Group: Soapbox - Members Followers: 2 Topic Count: 68 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 962 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 52 Days Won: 1 Joined: 05/18/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/11/1932 Share Posted March 3, 2008 I just read on the Jerusalem Post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 The distinction seems to be that many see the suffering and think that the solution is stopping all hostilities. After all, this makes good sense. Stop killing each other and there will be peace. Israel should simply surrender Sinai (which they have done) and Gaza (which they have also done) the West Bank, Jerusalem and the Golan Heights and then the killing will stop and there will be peace. Only one little problem remains. This will not be enough to satisfy the Arab nations or the Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted March 3, 2008 Share Posted March 3, 2008 I just read on the Jerusalem Post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elchingen Posted March 4, 2008 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 28 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/02/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/04/1970 Share Posted March 4, 2008 shiloh, david: I should make it clear that I do not arbitrarily single out Israel for any special condemnation. They are, to me, following an example set by many other countries, and their "crimes", as I see them, pale in significance to those of other "great powers". What then is my point? That violence begets violence, yes, but that we who are in Christ should see beyond these things. I am wrong, I feel, to support Israel simply because it appears to be the dictates of my faith. I do not see that it is. Christ tells me to love the Lord my God with all my strength, all my heart, and all my mind, to love my neighbor as myself, and to go into the world and preach the gospel. It is not mine to support Israel any more or less than any country on the planet--yet I am called by God to have love for every human being on the planet. I do as I feel Christ would do--to speak for the unspoken for, to support the oppressed, the downtrodden, the abused. The thinking of far right and even near-right Christianity denounces all of this. In place of love there is now "freedom". Tell me, where did Christ ever exhort us to defend and secure our freedom? Where did he ever encourage us to form a Christian state and defend it so that we might have the luxury of raising our children in a safe haven? When did Almighty God declare that a constitution and an army willing to defend it were as precious as the blood of Christ? Yet Christianity cringes at anything remotely "leftist"--labor unions, environmentalism, taxes on the rich and the conglomerates. We look the other way while impoverished Indonesian children work 12-14 hour days making $200 pairs of Nike sneakers that Christian America can buy their children. We ignore the obvious poverty and oppression of the masses of Latin America's people, yet when they dare come here for solely survival, we act as if the spawn of hell has gate-crashed our precious garden of eden. We, as a christian nation, found gay marraige to be so much more of a moral weight on our conscience than the bombing of civilians in Iraq that we re-elected the leader of the bombing campaign. What does this say to the world about Christians? What does it say about America? While better than 70% of the world lives in starvation and misery, America is broadcasting their obesity problem. Can you imagine the insult this is? Rich and poor, free and slave, man and woman, Jew and Gentile; all are equal in the blood of Christ. And that blood says LOve above all else. Out of love for Israel, I criticize them--they have so much to lose! And yet they still do not even know aht it is they have, do they? Out of love I speak for the Palestinians, because oppression is never excusable under any circumstance. Nor is violence excusable under any circumstance, and I pray for them on account of that. But I pray for all, and I love for all, regardless of race, religion, sex, nationality, etc. I know I have never been occupied, nor bombed, but by doing unto others as I would have them do for me, I pray and I speak. In Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 I am wrong, I feel, to support Israel simply because it appears to be the dictates of my faith. I support Israel because God does. The Bible teaches that when Jesus returns, He will fight for Israel (Zechariah 14) God calls Israel, His people, His beloved and the apple of His eye. He promises a curse on those who curse Israel and a blessing on those who bless Israel. Israel holds a special place in God's heart, whether your theology makes room for it or not. I support Israel because God has an eternal covenant with Israel and I choose to honor that covenant. Israel is still God's nation, God's people and always will be by virtue of an eternal covenant. The Palesitnians are the epitome of those who live under God's curse. They have sought and fought to destroy Israel and to break apart God's covenant with Israel, but all they have succeeded in doing is break themselves against it. The Palestinians are not oppressed by Israel, they are simply reaping fruit of their futile, wicked, insane agenda of destroying Israel. Appraently, you are unable or unwilling to recognize that fact. The Palestinian's problems are for the most part, self-inflicted. If they gave up their agenda to destroy Israel, they would live in God's blessings. As it is, they have chosen the way of pain. Truly, way of the wicked is hard. You can sit around and try to turn this into some anti-American rant, but the the truth is the truth. I will simply continue to honor God's covenant with Israel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Timer Posted March 4, 2008 Group: Soapbox - Members Followers: 2 Topic Count: 68 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 962 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 52 Days Won: 1 Joined: 05/18/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/11/1932 Share Posted March 4, 2008 I just read on the Jerusalem Post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Timer Posted March 4, 2008 Group: Soapbox - Members Followers: 2 Topic Count: 68 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 962 Content Per Day: 0.13 Reputation: 52 Days Won: 1 Joined: 05/18/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/11/1932 Share Posted March 4, 2008 shiloh, david: Yet Christianity cringes at anything remotely "leftist"--labor unions, environmentalism, taxes on the rich and the conglomerates. We look the other way while impoverished Indonesian children work 12-14 hour days making $200 pairs of Nike sneakers that Christian America can buy their children. We ignore the obvious poverty and oppression of the masses of Latin America's people, yet when they dare come here for solely survival, we act as if the spawn of hell has gate-crashed our precious garden of eden. We, as a christian nation, found gay marraige to be so much more of a moral weight on our conscience than the bombing of civilians in Iraq that we re-elected the leader of the bombing campaign. What does this say to the world about Christians? What does it say about America? While better than 70% of the world lives in starvation and misery, America is broadcasting their obesity problem. Can you imagine the insult this is? Please don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingelosi Posted March 4, 2008 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 29 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/21/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted March 4, 2008 (edited) Elchingen, First of all I am glad to see I'm not the only one here with these views. I have attempted in a few other topics to try and get my points across and it doesn't ever seem to come out right so I'm glad to see you here. I think its a great thing that all we can have these discussions to exchange ideas about the Kingdom. We all believe that the Kingdom will come, but we differ in our predictions of the way that it will come and what our part as Christians are in establishing it. One one hand, there are many who believe that the Kingdom will be brought by force and seem very eager to play a hand in it. I am not sure where their position stands on Jesus, shiloh has admitted to being a Jew and I believe some clarification of this is necessary. So far, I have mostly seen arguments that stem from the old covenant. The one between God and the people of Israel. That is not to say that the old testament is meaningless, it paints us a excellent picture of the nature of God and there are many noteworthy praises to be read. So this brings us back to the question of whether God supports Israel in this war. Well, judging by the old testament, and the old covenant he does. The Jews were his chosen people. But as I hope you all know, God made a new covenant, not 2000 years ago. In fact, we even uphold this covenant whenever we take the Eucharist (communion). We affirm that "[For] whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. 1 Corinthians 11:26". Through out scripture we read that Christ's death was a sacrifice, but something was special about this sacrifice. It was special because it was for Jews and Gentiles . This is central to the Christian faith that everyone can be freed from our sins. Yes, even terrorists. John (who was once called Saul) is a prime example of this. Now, on the other hand there is me, and Elchingen (though correct me if you don't share my views) who believe that in this war there are no winners because God would not support a side because its his own Kingdom he's worried about. God's scandalous grace was enough to save the world from its sins, why is it too weak to save a murderer's sins? Jesus has shown us how to live and I think that if the Messiah comes again but as a warrior, then he will show us the way. But until then, I think there is some Kingdom building to do and we don't do it by throwing bombs at each other. I have prayed for Palestine and have gotten labelled as an anti-semetic pacifist. I have prayed for Israel and am told I am not to be trusted and that I'm not genuine. Please, this has to stop. In Love, Adam EDIT: I shouldn't be naming names Edited March 4, 2008 by Ingelosi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted March 4, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 10 Topic Count: 5,823 Topics Per Day: 0.76 Content Count: 45,870 Content Per Day: 5.95 Reputation: 1,897 Days Won: 83 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/19/1970 Share Posted March 4, 2008 One one hand, there is shiloh, nebula and many others who believe that the Kingdom will be brought by force and seem very eager to play a hand in it. Well, if that is how you interpret our words, you are not hearing correctly. Forgive me for not elaborating much, but it is very late. This issue is how we interpret God's covenant to Abraham - that eternal means eternal . . . not until the New Covenant. And it is disagreeing with this idea that "the Church" has replaced Israel. It also how we interpret current events with the "End time" prophecies. And it is defending a nation surrounded by enemies who have declared more than once that they won't stop until every Jew is driven out of Israel. I am not sure where their position stands on Jesus, Is the news section the only part of the Board you have read? I talk about Jesus a lot throughout the Board. You may click on my name to see link options and check my "posts by member" to see for yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingelosi Posted March 4, 2008 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 29 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 07/21/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted March 4, 2008 Is the news section the only part of the Board you have read? I talk about Jesus a lot throughout the Board. You may click on my name to see link options and check my "posts by member" to see for yourself. Sorry, I should have said that I would like some clarification from shiloh. I didn't mean that for you, I will change it right away. shiloh said he is a Jew, I am wondering what his position stands on Jesus. I wonder whether he is considering himself a Jew by ancestry or religion. If he considers himself a Jew by religion then I've got nothing against that but why would he speak for Christians? And nebula, you're right. I don't do much looking around the rest of the boards, something I should do more of I guess... But this is such an important topic for me, if I am wrong then it will turn my faith upside down. Then again maybe sometimes we need a bit of shaking up... Alright I'm going to bed now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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