Women Pastors

[Vickilynn]

males and females are in Christ. this is the entire body.

members of this body have different roles to make it function.

Shalom Ex,

Correct. And the arguments to the contrary are Straw Man arguments. We are not talking about salvation, or standing before G-d. We are stating that men and women have EQUAL BUT DIFFERENT roles, as laid out by G-d, and according to His authority structure.

yep. unfortunately people make it about them.

they do the "well, i don't wanna do that. i'd rather do this...God told my heart i can be this...."

what people fail to understand is that it takes humility to not make it about them but about God.

line after line. scripture after scripture we see this over and over.

Yet people make it about them.

Shalom EX,

That's what this whole thing boils down to. Doing it G-D's way, or women's way? I believe it's the "P" word in most cases. Now, some women genuinely don't understand, but when they see the Scriptures and say they ain't gonna do this or that and ain't nobody gonna make them, well, that's a good indication of some rebellion and authority issues, IMHO.

And it's NOT about them, it's about G-d and His plan and His authority.

[Emily~Anne]

When trying to understand what God desires for us as ladies, we MUST set aside our fleshly selves and be open to the Holy Spirit

[jehovah Nissi]

I really appreciated reading (most) of tsth's thread. This issue is definitely about God's order. from creation God made man to be in authority over the woman. Just because men don't always step up does not mean that women have the right to disobey by taking such authority to themselves. Please exercise some humility, people, and try not to attack each other. Also, I would like to stay on topic and not digress to cartoons. How nice it would be if some of you were to look at this not situationally, but Biblically. What I am setting forth is that the standard ought to be men in authority. We cannot make the exceptions the rule. Just because there are alot of situations in families where this doesn't work out (i.e. single moms) doesn't mean that we shouldn't strive for what God intended from the beginning. Don't use circumstances to justify throwing off God's order just because you're in a place where it's not happening. We MUST obey God even if eveyone around us isn't.

Hello Honeybee,

I come with all humility and I have a desire to know God's word and His word only as the truth. I believe that there is a vast difference in what God ordained in a relationship as the man being the head of his wife and Christians (male or female) roles in the church today. When 1 Timothy is quoted as being an ordinance for the Body of Christ on how the church should be put in order, my gaurders come up because Paul was writing to Timothy (chapter 1:2) some advise on some questions he had to paul. These letters to Timothy were not addressed to the church like other Epistles are. we do know that Paul, in these two books, is responding to something Timothy said or asked unless Paul was just shooting from the hip and speeking something randomly which I doubt was the case. Communications go two ways, not just one way. Have you ever gotten a letter from your pastor on instructions on something totaly random that you have had no communications about?

I do believe that we can learn from the books of timothy and yes take it as the word of God, but when interpreting the bible we have to know the history of what was going on back then, who it is addressed to and who are the people involved, where is this taking place, when did this take place, etc... All of this stuff is pertinate to rightly dividing God's Word (2 Tim. 2:15). Threre are a lot of things in the bible that if not interpreted correctly, they would lead people in great error...for instince: Does the fact that both the OT and NT provide guidelines for slaves mean that the bible condones slavery? Should we put out a fleece before God (as Gideon did) when we need direction? Since David and Solomon had more than one wife, is it OK for us to have multiple wives as well? Should we greet one another with a holy physical kiss? Should we hate our parents (Luke 14:26)? If we have a problem with lust, should we gouge our eyes out? If we have a problem with our hands, should we amputate them? Should Women keep silent in the church today?

I would encourage you to study the history of the situation that Timothy was in and why Paul was speaking these things to Timothy. And I would also ask you to excersise some humility and ask God to open your eyes to the truth of all of this. I would also ask for at least three verses in the epistles to the church that say that we shouldn't have any women in authority. God spoke this in my heart this morning. "Jeff, if I had two people to choose from to send [yes even God is limited to who he can send because of peoples choice to disobey Him] to a particular nation to be the head of a minsitry that would preach the Word to many and get many saved, and those two people were a male and a female...if I choose the male and he decided not to obey me, would I just let this nation suffer and watch all of them go to hell because I refuse to send the woman because supposedly I won't allow women to be in authority? NO, I would send the woman." Take it as it is...women are vessles of the Lord just as much as men are vessles. I don't say all of this to attack you...I want the truth to be heard just as much as you do. After all, we are family...we serve the same God and We do agree on one thing for sure...He is King and the ONLY Wise God in whom we should all put our trust. amen.

In Love,

J

[jackie d]

I really appreciated reading (most) of tsth's thread. This issue is definitely about God's order. from creation God made man to be in authority over the woman. Just because men don't always step up does not mean that women have the right to disobey by taking such authority to themselves. Please exercise some humility, people, and try not to attack each other. Also, I would like to stay on topic and not digress to cartoons. How nice it would be if some of you were to look at this not situationally, but Biblically. What I am setting forth is that the standard ought to be men in authority. We cannot make the exceptions the rule. Just because there are alot of situations in families where this doesn't work out (i.e. single moms) doesn't mean that we shouldn't strive for what God intended from the beginning. Don't use circumstances to justify throwing off God's order just because you're in a place where it's not happening. We MUST obey God even if eveyone around us isn't.

Hello Honeybee,

I come with all humility and I have a desire to know God's word and His word only as the truth. I believe that there is a vast difference in what God ordained in a relationship as the man being the head of his wife and Christians (male or female) roles in the church today. When 1 Timothy is quoted as being an ordinance for the Body of Christ on how the church should be put in order, my gaurders come up because Paul was writing to Timothy (chapter 1:2) some advise on some questions he had to paul. These letters to Timothy were not addressed to the church like other Epistles are. we do know that Paul, in these two books, is responding to something Timothy said or asked unless Paul was just shooting from the hip and speeking something randomly which I doubt was the case. Communications go two ways, not just one way. Have you ever gotten a letter from your pastor on instructions on something totaly random that you have had no communications about?

I do believe that we can learn from the books of timothy and yes take it as the word of God, but when interpreting the bible we have to know the history of what was going on back then, who it is addressed to and who are the people involved, where is this taking place, when did this take place, etc... All of this stuff is pertinate to rightly dividing God's Word (2 Tim. 2:15). Threre are a lot of things in the bible that if not interpreted correctly, they would lead people in great error...for instince: Does the fact that both the OT and NT provide guidelines for slaves mean that the bible condones slavery? Should we put out a fleece before God (as Gideon did) when we need direction? Since David and Solomon had more than one wife, is it OK for us to have multiple wives as well? Should we greet one another with a holy physical kiss? Should we hate our parents (Luke 14:26)? If we have a problem with lust, should we gouge our eyes out? If we have a problem with our hands, should we amputate them? Should Women keep silent in the church today?

I would encourage you to study the history of the situation that Timothy was in and why Paul was speaking these things to Timothy. And I would also ask you to excersise some humility and ask God to open your eyes to the truth of all of this. I would also ask for at least three verses in the epistles to the church that say that we shouldn't have any women in authority. God spoke this in my heart this morning. "Jeff, if I had two people to choose from to send [yes even God is limited to who he can send because of peoples choice to disobey Him] to a particular nation to be the head of a minsitry that would preach the Word to many and get many saved, and those two people were a male and a female...if I choose the male and he decided not to obey me, would I just let this nation suffer and watch all of them go to hell because I refuse to send the woman because supposedly I won't allow women to be in authority? NO, I would send the woman." Take it as it is...women are vessles of the Lord just as much as men are vessles. I don't say all of this to attack you...I want the truth to be heard just as much as you do. After all, we are family...we serve the same God and We do agree on one thing for sure...He is King and the ONLY Wise God in whom we should all put our trust. amen.

In Love,

J

really GOOD post

[jehovah Nissi]

really GOOD post

Thanks Jacki and your welcome for the article...I rejoice that it helped someone.

J

[Karen C.]

I really appreciated reading (most) of tsth's thread. This issue is definitely about God's order. from creation God made man to be in authority over the woman. Just because men don't always step up does not mean that women have the right to disobey by taking such authority to themselves. Please exercise some humility, people, and try not to attack each other. Also, I would like to stay on topic and not digress to cartoons. How nice it would be if some of you were to look at this not situationally, but Biblically. What I am setting forth is that the standard ought to be men in authority. We cannot make the exceptions the rule. Just because there are alot of situations in families where this doesn't work out (i.e. single moms) doesn't mean that we shouldn't strive for what God intended from the beginning. Don't use circumstances to justify throwing off God's order just because you're in a place where it's not happening. We MUST obey God even if eveyone around us isn't.

Hello Honeybee,

I come with all humility and I have a desire to know God's word and His word only as the truth. I believe that there is a vast difference in what God ordained in a relationship as the man being the head of his wife and Christians (male or female) roles in the church today. When 1 Timothy is quoted as being an ordinance for the Body of Christ on how the church should be put in order, my gaurders come up because Paul was writing to Timothy (chapter 1:2) some advise on some questions he had to paul. These letters to Timothy were not addressed to the church like other Epistles are. we do know that Paul, in these two books, is responding to something Timothy said or asked unless Paul was just shooting from the hip and speeking something randomly which I doubt was the case. Communications go two ways, not just one way. Have you ever gotten a letter from your pastor on instructions on something totaly random that you have had no communications about?

I do believe that we can learn from the books of timothy and yes take it as the word of God, but when interpreting the bible we have to know the history of what was going on back then, who it is addressed to and who are the people involved, where is this taking place, when did this take place, etc... All of this stuff is pertinate to rightly dividing God's Word (2 Tim. 2:15). Threre are a lot of things in the bible that if not interpreted correctly, they would lead people in great error...for instince: Does the fact that both the OT and NT provide guidelines for slaves mean that the bible condones slavery? Should we put out a fleece before God (as Gideon did) when we need direction? Since David and Solomon had more than one wife, is it OK for us to have multiple wives as well? Should we greet one another with a holy physical kiss? Should we hate our parents (Luke 14:26)? If we have a problem with lust, should we gouge our eyes out? If we have a problem with our hands, should we amputate them? Should Women keep silent in the church today?

I would encourage you to study the history of the situation that Timothy was in and why Paul was speaking these things to Timothy. And I would also ask you to excersise some humility and ask God to open your eyes to the truth of all of this. I would also ask for at least three verses in the epistles to the church that say that we shouldn't have any women in authority. God spoke this in my heart this morning. "Jeff, if I had two people to choose from to send [yes even God is limited to who he can send because of peoples choice to disobey Him] to a particular nation to be the head of a minsitry that would preach the Word to many and get many saved, and those two people were a male and a female...if I choose the male and he decided not to obey me, would I just let this nation suffer and watch all of them go to hell because I refuse to send the woman because supposedly I won't allow women to be in authority? NO, I would send the woman." Take it as it is...women are vessles of the Lord just as much as men are vessles. I don't say all of this to attack you...I want the truth to be heard just as much as you do. After all, we are family...we serve the same God and We do agree on one thing for sure...He is King and the ONLY Wise God in whom we should all put our trust. amen.

In Love,

J

Thank you for taking the time to speak from your heart and also with wisdom. As a women that was called into ministry (ordained minister/teacher) I have heard the most critical judgement from those with in the body of Christ. Even posting on this board, "women pastors" has been a topic that I usually post very little on.

Putting things into perspective by using correct context to evaluate the epistles and the real meaning behind scripture is utmost importance.

Again thank you.

Blessings, Karen

[jehovah Nissi]

Thank you for taking the time to speak from your heart and also with wisdom. As a women that was called into ministry (ordained minister/teacher) I have heard the most critical judgement from those with in the body of Christ. Even posting on this board, "women pastors" has been a topic that I usually post very little on.

Putting things into perspective by using correct context to evaluate the epistles and the real meaning behind scripture is utmost importance.

Again thank you.

Blessings, Karen

Well praise God. I'm glad you are following God's plan for your life. It is sad that most of the pesecution comes from within the body. Your a blessing. Thanks,

J

[Emily~Anne]

Shalom,

Every time this topic comes up, I post this EXCELLENT article from a well-respected Apologetics site, CARM.

(Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry)

Please read it! It's all Scripture and very wise and covers all these common arguments y'all are throwing in.

http://www.carm.org/questions/womenpastors.htm

Should Women Be Pastors and Elders?

In a social climate of complete equality in all things, the biblical teaching of only allowing men to be pastors and elders is not popular. Many feminist organizations denounce this position as antiquated and chauvinistic. In addition, many Christian churches have adopted the "politically correct" social standard and have allowed women pastors and elders in the church. But the question remains, is this biblical?

My answer to this question is, "No, women are not to be pastors and elders." Many may not like that answer, but it is, I believe, an accurate representation of the biblical standard. You make the decision after reading this paper.

First of all, women are under-appreciated and under-utilized in the church. There are many gifted women who might very well do a better job at preaching and teaching than many men. However, it isn't gifting that is the issue, but God's order and calling. What does the Bible say? We cannot come to God's word with a social agenda and make it fit our wants. Instead, we must change and adapt to what it says.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, the garden of Eden, and Adam and Eve. He put Adam in the garden and gave him the authority to name all the animals. Afterwards, God made Eve as a helper to Adam.(1) This is an important concept because Paul refers to the order of creation in his epistle to Timothy when he discusses the relationship between men and women in the church context. Let's take a look.

"But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being quite deceived, fell into transgression" (1 Tim. 2:12-14 -- all quotes from the Bible are from the NASB). This passage has several interesting areas of discussion, but for our purpose we will focus on authority. At the very least, there is an authority structure set up by God. The woman is not to have authority over the man in the church context. But this does not extend to the political/economic world. In the Old Testament Deborah was a judge in Israel over men. Also, in the New Testament, Phoebe played an important role in the church at Cenchrea (Romans 16). There is no doubt that women supported Paul in many areas and were great helpers in the church (Act 2:17; 18:24; 21:8). But what Paul is speaking of in 1 Tim. 2 is the relationship between men and women in the church structure, not in a social or political context.

When we look further at Paul's teachings we see that the bishop/overseer is to be the husband of one wife (1 Tim. 3:2) who manages his household well and has a good reputation (1 Tim. 3:4-5, 7). Deacons must be "men of dignity"(1 Tim. 3:8). Paul then speaks of women in verse 11 and their obligation to receive instruction. Then in verse 12, Paul says "Let deacons be husbands of one wife..." Again, in Titus 1:5-7, Paul says, "For this reason I left you in Crete, that you might set in order what remains, and appoint elders in every city as I directed you, namely, if any man be above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion. For the overseer must be above reproach as God's steward..." Notice that Paul interchanges the word 'elder' and 'overseer'.

In each case, the one who is an elder, deacon, bishop, or overseer is instructed to be male. He is the husband of one wife, responsible, able to "exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict" (Titus 1:9). We see no command for the overseers to be women. On the contrary, women are told to be "dignified, not malicious gossips, but temperate, faithful in all things" (1 Tim. 3:11). Why is it that it is the men who are singled out as the overseers? It is because of the created order of God that Paul references (Gen. 1-2; 1 Tim. 2:12-14). This is not merely a social custom that fell away with ancient Israel.

Additionally, in the Old Testament in over 700 mentions of priests, every single one was a male. There is not one instance of a female priest. This is significant because priests were ordained by God to hold a very important office of ministering the sacrifices. This was not the job of women.

Therefore, from what I see in Genesis 1-2, 1 Timothy 2, and Titus 1, the normal and proper person to hold the office of elder/pastor is to be a man.

What About Galatians 3:28?

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus," (Gal. 3:28).

This verse is often used to support the idea that women can hold the offices of elder and pastor because there is neither male nor female in Christ. The argument states that if we are all equal, then women can be pastors.

Unfortunately, those who use this verse this way have failed to read the context. Verse 23 talks about being under the Law "before faith came" and how we are brought closer to Jesus and have become sons of God by faith. We are no longer under law, but grace and we are "Abraham's offspring, heirs according to the promise," (v. 29).(2) The point of this passage is that we are all saved by God's grace according to the promise of God and that it doesn't matter who you are, Jew, Greek, slave, free, male, or female. All are saved the same way, by grace. In that, there is neither male nor female.

This verse is not talking about church structure. It is talking about salvation "in Christ." It cannot be used to support women as pastors because that isn't what it is talking about. Instead, to find out about church structure and leadership, you need to go to those passages that talk about it: 1 Timothy 2 and Titus 1.

Being a Pastor or Elder is to be in Authority

God is a God of order and balance. He has established order within the family (Gen. 3:16; 1 Cor. 11:3; Eph. 5:22-33; Col. 3:18-21 ) and the church (1 Tim. 2:11-14; 1 Cor. 11:8-9). Even within the Trinity there is an order, a hierarchy. The Father sent the Son (John 6:38) and both the Father and the Son sent the Holy Spirit (John 14:26; 15:26). Jesus said, "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me," (John 6:38). It is clear that God is a God of order and structure.

In creation, God made Adam first and then Eve to be his helper. This is the order of creation. It is this order that Paul mentions in 1 Tim. 2:11-14 when speaking of authority. Being a pastor or an elder is to be in the place of authority. Therefore, within the church, for a woman to be a pastor or elder, she would be in authority of men in the church which contradicts what Paul says in 1 Tim. 2:11-14.

But Doesn't This Teaching Belittle Women?

No, male leadership does not belittle women. Jesus was given his authority by God the Father (Matt. 28:18). He was sent by God (John 6:38). He said the Father was greater than He (John 14:28). Did this belittle Jesus? Of course not. Women are of great value in the church and need to be used more and more according to the gifts given them.

Does the wife's submission to the husband mean that she is less than the husband, less important, or belittled? Again, not at all. Not having a place of leadership in the church does not mean a woman is less of a person, less important to God, or inferior. All are equal before God whether it be Jew, Gentile, free, slave, male, or female. But in the church, God has set up an order the same way he set one up in the family. The chain of command is Jesus, the man, the wife, and the children.

What About Women Who Say They are Called By God to Be Pastors?

There are women pastors in the world who love their congregations and have stated that they are called by God to be pastors. Of course, I cannot agree with this considering the previous analysis of the biblical position. Instead, I believe they have usurped the position of men and gone against the norm of scriptural revelation. Additionally, those who state that they are called by God because of the great job they are doing and the gifting they have received are basing their theology upon experience and not scripture.

The issue is simple: are they submitting to the word of God or are they making the word of God submit to their desires?

What About a Missionary Woman Who Establishes a Church?

Scripture establishes the norm. As Christians we apply what we learn from the word, to the situations at hand. So, what about the situation where a woman missionary has converted a group of people, say in the jungle somewhere, and she has established a church? In that church, she is then functioning as a pastor and teacher having authority over men in the church. Should she not do this?

First of all, she should not be out there alone. She should be with her husband or, at the very least, under the oversight of a church body in the presence of other women and men. Missionary work is not a lone endeavor to be handled by single women.

Second, if in some highly unusual set of circumstances there is a woman in a lone situation, it is far more important that the word of God be preached and the gospel of salvation go forth to the lost than not. Whether it be male or female, let the gospel be spoken. However, I would say that as soon as there is/are males mature enough to handle eldership, that she should then establish the proper order of the church as revealed in scripture and thereby, show her submission to it.

Does this also mean that women shouldn't wear jewelry?

"Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments; 10 but rather by means of good works, as befits women making a claim to godliness. 11 Let a woman quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve," (1 Tim. 2:9-13).

Some argue that if we are to forbid women to be elders then the context of 1 Tim. 2:9-13 demands that we require women to no have braided hair, wear gold, or have costly garments. Since no one wants to put that sort of a demand on a woman (since it is cultural), then why should we also demand that they not be elders since it would logically follow that it was also a culturally based admonition?

The problem here is that multifaceted. First, the objection ignore what the scriptures plainly teach about the elder being the husband of one wife. Second, it fails to address the real issue of biblical headship residing in the male. Third, it fails to properly exegete the scripture in question.

In 1 Tim. 2:9-13 Paul tells us that women should be modestly dressed. He uses the example of then present day adornment as an example of what not to do, definitely culturally based assessment by Paul. Notice that Paul emphasizes good works and godliness as a qualifier (as does Peter, see 1 Pet. 3:2). This is not a doctrinal statement tied to anything other than being a godly woman in appearance as well as attitude.

In verse 11, Paul says that a woman should quietly receive instruction. Please note that "The word, he

[Emily~Anne]

women are vessles of the Lord just as much as men are vessles.

Amen, and are you aware that men and women do not need to serve the same roles in order to both be vessels of the Lord?

[O'Dannyboy]

For those who read my last post as insulting, I apologise. I do get a bit zealous when it comes to scripture and at times do take offense to any dismissal of "traditional" teachings based on a persons acceptace of "modern" societal views. Todays society is a direct reflection of how far mankind has fallen and I do not believe we need to gage the relevance of scriptural teachings by what society has or is willing to accept. If we sought societies aproval on everything, especially scripture, we should also be willing to accept the fate that awaits them for having rejected God. The Bible does not call us to comprimise but to be seperate.

While I was searching for a particular quote I found this site/page. [url=http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0MDO/is_6_29/ai_95148872/pg_3]Luther on gender relations