Kansasdad Posted March 12, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,227 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/10/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/19/1964 Share Posted March 12, 2008 This thread will not become a discussion of or a defence of the catholic church. No problem but please answer the question. You believe one thing about the Eucharist and yet I can find thousands of other protestants who believe something fundamentally different. You claim the Authority of being guided by the Holy Spirit through scripture alone, BUT so does this other group. Why should I believe you and not them? You both claim the exact same authority and can argue your points from that same authority. Please note I am not looking for a defense of your doctrine on the Eucharist, but of your authority to make such a claim. God Bless, K.D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted March 12, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted March 12, 2008 This thread will not become a discussion of or a defence of the catholic church. No problem but please answer the question. You believe one thing about the Eucharist and yet I can find thousands of other protestants who believe something fundamentally different. You claim the Authority of being guided by the Holy Spirit through scripture alone, BUT so does this other group. Why should I believe you and not them? You both claim the exact same authority and can argue your points from that same authority. Please note I am not looking for a defense of your doctrine on the Eucharist, but of your authority to make such a claim. God Bless, K.D. The problem is that this is not an argument at all. I can find members (many) of all denominations (including yours) that believe different things. The point is not what we believe and who agrees with us. The point is what God says, and what we use as our authority. My authority is based on the text alone. If what I believe deviates from the text, then I lose my authority (no matter what I might say). If I claime to be lead by the Spirit, or have history on my side etc etc, but do not reflect what the text alone teaches, it does not matter what I believe or who agrees with me. The Spirit's guidance will never contradict the text. that is why are discussions should be limited to what the text says. that is where the truth resides. Even if nobody believed what the text said, the truth would still be there alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ddavid from NC Posted March 12, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 196 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,343 Content Per Day: 0.23 Reputation: 12 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/15/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/03/1964 Share Posted March 12, 2008 This thread will not become a discussion of or a defence of the catholic church. No problem but please answer the question. You believe one thing about the Eucharist and yet I can find thousands of other protestants who believe something fundamentally different. You claim the Authority of being guided by the Holy Spirit through scripture alone, BUT so does this other group. Why should I believe you and not them? You both claim the exact same authority and can argue your points from that same authority. Please note I am not looking for a defense of your doctrine on the Eucharist, but of your authority to make such a claim. God Bless, K.D. The problem is that this is not an argument at all. I can find members (many) of all denominations (including yours) that believe different things. The point is not what we believe and who agrees with us. The point is what God says, and what we use as our authority. My authority is based on the text alone. If what I believe deviates from the text, then I lose my authority (no matter what I might say). If I claime to be lead by the Spirit, or have history on my side etc etc, but do not reflect what the text alone teaches, it does not matter what I believe or who agrees with me. The Spirit's guidance will never contradict the text. that is why are discussions should be limited to what the text says. that is where the truth resides. Even if nobody believed what the text said, the truth would still be there alone. Right there with you Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayin jade Posted March 12, 2008 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 44 Topic Count: 6,178 Topics Per Day: 0.87 Content Count: 43,799 Content Per Day: 6.19 Reputation: 11,244 Days Won: 58 Joined: 01/03/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted March 12, 2008 Sounds like someone has an agenda .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ddavid from NC Posted March 12, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 196 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,343 Content Per Day: 0.23 Reputation: 12 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/15/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/03/1964 Share Posted March 12, 2008 Sounds like someone has an agenda .... No, its the basis of sound doctrine and interpretation of Scripture for faith and practice. If it is not applied it leads to error and erroneous doctrine regardless of creed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kansasdad Posted March 12, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,227 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/10/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/19/1964 Share Posted March 12, 2008 Nope sorry that is side stepping the question. Lets put it this way. You have two people both very devoted to Christ. They both read the Bible and both are very well educated and diligent people. Yet they come to very opposite conclusions of the same scripture even after much prayerful searching. Now Both claim they are being led by the Holy Spirit. Both have the exact same scripture. The Holy spirit did NOT lead one to one truth and the other to a different truth. NOW WHAT? One of them is being deceived. One of them is believing in a lie. One of them is being influenced by satan. Should we not care to know which one WE are. I think it is a question we should concern ourselves with. God Bless, K.D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest shiloh357 Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 Nope sorry that is side stepping the question. Lets put it this way. You have two people both very devoted to Christ. They both read the Bible and both are very well educated and diligent people. Yet they come to very opposite conclusions of the same scripture even after much prayerful searching. Now Both claim they are being led by the Holy Spirit. Both have the exact same scripture. The Holy spirit did NOT lead one to one truth and the other to a different truth. NOW WHAT? One of them is being deceived. One of them is believing in a lie. One of them is being influenced by satan. Should we not care to know which one WE are. I think it is a question we should concern ourselves with. God Bless, K.D. 1. Neither may be led by the Holy Spirit. To simply claim "The Holy Spirit taught me this" doesn't really carry much weight, as no one is really obligated to believe that. I have seen a lot of sloppy "T.V. Evangelist" theology blamed on the Holy Spirit. 2. It does not follow that if two people disagree with one another about the Bible that one of them is being influenced by Satan. That is just silly. A person can theologically mistaken without any help from Satan. 3. Different Christians are also at different stages of growth in their walk with Christ. All other things being equal, none of us are at the same place, all of us are learning and in many cases relearning biblical truth. Being at different stages of learning and growth also plays a major role in why Christians don't always see eye to eye. I am always learning, unlearning and relearning. I am always having to discard what I discover is in error and relearn what the Bible says about various subjects. I am always growing and always changing and developing. 4. Different people come from different environments, they have been taught the Bible a certain way by those among whom they were raised. Everyone of us, when it comes to our theoligical views are basically the product of the books we have read, the pastors we have sat under, and everything and everyone else that has influenced each of us over the years. All of that plays a part in how we understand the Bible. It comes down to paradigms. A paradigm is a frame of reference. It is our perspective on life. It is how we see the world. It is our paradigm that causes us to feel that the way we see things is the way it really is, and anyone who doesn't see it our way just isn't looking at reality. Paradigms, to a large degree explain why two people can approach the same set of Scriptures and walk way with two completely different opinions. It is not because they have different set of facts, but because the perspectives they bring to the Scriptures determine the conclusions they draw. 5. God can also minsiter the same verse to different people based upon their own individual needs. Often what is seen opposing, isn't. It is simply two different perspectives which are both correct, but are the result of the Lord using the same verse or passage differently in different people lives. The human element cannot be brushed aside even when dealing with the Bible. Having said that, when it comes to core issues, those essential, defining elements of the Christian faith (Deity of Jesus, salvation by grace through faith, Trinity, etc), most Christians do agree on those things regardless of denominational affilation. Other peripheral issues (OSAS, speaking in tongues, the Rapture), are things we can disagree about without breaking fellowship over. What most of us do believe is that the Bible is the final authority in the life of a Christian. It is the sole arbiter of in matters of Christian faith and practice. The Bible is perfect, but our understanding of it isn't. That is why we continue to grow in it. The foolish person is the person who says, "THIS is it. This is the teaching that everyone has to believe." It is foolish to think that anyone on this planet as "arrived" at THE truth. The Bible is inexhaustible in knowledge and wisdom, and we will NEVER as finite, flawed humans ever come to a perfect understanding of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard_yaash Posted March 13, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 940 Content Per Day: 0.16 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/10/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted March 13, 2008 The Bible is inexhaustible in knowledge and wisdom, and we will NEVER as finite, flawed humans ever come to a perfect understanding of it. Well, no reason for me to reply. Well said Shiloh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jadams_4040 Posted March 13, 2008 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 52 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/05/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/17/1953 Share Posted March 13, 2008 I always read posts saying what "Christians" believe and don't believe Most of these posts are by protestants - or "non-denominationalists" if you prefer - who often seem to think the name "Christian" only applies only to them, but not to Catholics or Eastern Orthodox or Coptics or others. My questions is: How can a group that represents less than 20% of all Christians say what Christians believe? Here are some simple facts: The total number of Christians in the world is: 2.1 billion. This is how it breaks down: 1) Catholics: 1.2 billion 2) Eastern Orthodox: 0.4 billion 3) Protestansts (Baptists, Lutherans, etc. etc): 0.4 billion 4) Other (Coptics, etc.) In light of these statistics, how can a group that represents less than 20% of Christians say what Christians believe? And, more than that, among themselves they argue endlessly because that small group is divided into hundreds of "denominations" who all disagree on doctrines. Yet they claim that the Holy Spirit guides them when they read the Scriptures. I have never a good reply to this question. BY THE WAY: I'm not saying the majority is always right, I am simply saying that a group that represents less than 20% of Christians cannot say what all Christians can or should believe !! None of us are to judge others as too what they might beleive, but i am also a very firm beleiver in the scripture that says "until all come into the unity of one faith, one lord and one baptism, christianity cannot be 100 percent together on all there beleifs, I:E... i can go on differant chistian internet sites across the country, {local churchs} when i read the doctrines of beleife, very few are the same for the same denomination church! I really cannot accept the truths of something that cannot come together in unity of faith, i will not condem nor judge, but i cannot trust things that are not in unity as Holy scripture states it needs be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Biblicist Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 What do you believe CC? What do you believe being a Christian means? (edited by moderator - apologetic for the catholic church) As for being a Christian, I became an adopted son of the Father through Baptism, which is the entrance into the faily covenant of God. I have faith in Christ as my savior. I believe in salvation by Grace Alone (Sola Gratia) but NOT faith alone (Sola Fide), and therefore believe that I am redeemed by the blood of Christ, I trust in him alone for my salvation, and, as the Bible teaches, I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), knowing that it is God's gift of grace that is working in me. I am so glad to hear that you have faith in Jesus Christ as your Saviour and you are redeemed by the blood of Christ. May God bless you as you continue to work out your salvation, I pray that you find help here, as I have. God's Blessings on you, Bibs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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