Kansasdad Posted March 19, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,227 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/10/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/19/1964 Share Posted March 19, 2008 Then you would need to understand how Pillars and foundations functioned in the culture Paul was writing from. What did you find when you did that? My point is that simply quoting a verse we think supports our position is not sufficient. We need to understand word meanings, context, and historical backgrounds. Event when that is done we must rub our findings for that particular passage up against what the remainder of scripture teaches. Your position seems to be that the church (not defined here yet) is the basis or source of truth. That is not supported by 1 Timothy 3:15. Pillars and foundations are not sources, they are supports. The church was designed to support the truth as revealed in scripture. That is the entire tone of 1 Timothy. that the local church should conduct itself in such a way that it supports revealed truth. Thanks for illustrating my point so well. What happens if you take the pillars away? What happens if you take the foundation away? It all collapses into a big messed up pile. When you pull the Church out of the equation that is exactly what happens to his truth. Also I did not say the church was the source of truth. I quoted scripture. The Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. You can try and dance around the word truth but it really doesn't matter. If you take away the church you take away the pillar and ground and are left with a truth that is a big heaping mess, however you want to define truth. God Bless, K.D. So your point is that the church is here to simply support the truth as revealed in scripture? As revealed by Jesus, through the Apostles and Prophets. Scripture is what was written down and without the Church his truth will become a jumbled mess. Exactly what we see happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted March 19, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted March 19, 2008 1 Tim. 3:1; Titus 1:7 - Christ's Church has bishops ("episkopoi") who are direct successors of the apostles. The bishops can trace the authority conferred upon them back to the apostles. Here are the passages you quoted: This saying is trustworthy: "If anyone aspires to be an overseer, he desires a noble work." 1 Timothy 3:1 HCSB All Paul is saying is that if someone wants to be an elder in a local church that is a good thing. See no mention of a direct line to the apostles here. For an overseer, as God's manager, must be blameless, not arrogant, not quick tempered, not addicted to wine, not a bully, not greedy for money, Titus 1:7 HCSB All I see here are character qualities that are required for men desiring to serve in leadership in the church. I see no mention of an apostilic line. It seems you have added that concept Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kansasdad Posted March 19, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 19 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,227 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 6 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/10/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/19/1964 Share Posted March 19, 2008 Phil. 1:1 - Paul addresses the bishops and deacons of the Church. They can all trace their unbroken lineage back to the apostles. Here is the passage you quoted: Paul and Timothy, slaves of Christ Jesus: To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, including the overseers and deacons. Phil 1:1 HCSB No argument that Paul has addressed this to all of the people in the church at Phillippi (a local church). But I see no mention of an unbroken lineage being a requirement. It would make sense that given the time frame thet Paul wrote this, and since he planted the church, some of them knew Paul. But it is not listed as a requirement for leadership. So just because some of them knew the apostles, does not make that a requirement Fair enough this does need further exploration, lets look at just how the leaders of the Church were appointed. A very important point. Just a note, I didn't say they all knew the Apostles, only that they could trace their leadership authority back to the Apostles. I am out of time tonight, will work on this tomorrow. God Bless, K.D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted March 19, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.22 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted March 19, 2008 1 Tim. 3:15). But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth I was ... this is what He meant by the church. The pillar and ground of the truth are these very same believers. Do you think it is a building? Matthew 18:17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican. 18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven. How does this make any sense unless there is a structure {organization} to the church. No, I am not talking about the bricks of a building. I am talking about the organization set up by Jesus. This entity is called his church. It has a structure, and organization and a visible leadership and authority. So, we agree. Let's take it one step further. Do you think that only those in the offices in these churches are the only one's that the Holy Spirit teaches? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted March 19, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted March 19, 2008 1 Tim. 5:17; Titus 1:5; James 5:14 - Christ's Church also has elders or priests ("presbyteroi") who serve the bishops. Here are the passages you summarized: The elders who are good leaders should be considered worthy of an ample honorarium, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching. 1 Timothy 5:17 Simply states that teaching elders deserve to be paid. No argument there The reason I left you in Crete was to set right what was left undone and, as I directed you, to appoint elders in every town: Titus 1:5 HCSB Again Paul telling them to appoint elders (according to the character qualities later in the book) in every local church Is anyone among you sick? He should call for the elders of the church, and they should pray over him after anointing him with olive oil in the name of the Lord. James 5:14 HCSB James instructs that the leadership of the local church should pray for the sick. Again these passages teach local church leadership. No argument there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted March 19, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted March 19, 2008 1 Tim. 3:8 - Christ's Church also has deacons ("diakonoi"). Thus, Jesus Christ's Church has a hierarchy of authority - bishops, priests and deacons, who can all trace their lineage back to the apostles. Here is the passage you summarized: Deacons, likewise, should be worthy of respect, not hypocritical, not drinking a lot of wine, not greedy for money, 1 Timothy 3:8 HCSB Again, no mention of a lineage here as a requirement. You seem to have added that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted March 19, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted March 19, 2008 Exodus 28:1 and 19:6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caughtinside Posted March 20, 2008 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 120 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/15/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted March 20, 2008 I have a couple of specific examples to go with the OP's question. First, most Christians say that Mormons aren't Christians. Second, some say that Open Theism is not Christianity, some say it is. Who decides on those two examples, and how do they do it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
followerofjesus Posted March 20, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 31 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 1,013 Content Per Day: 0.14 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/08/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted March 20, 2008 Due to the fact mormons follow their faith from teaching outside the holy scripture and teachings oF Jesus disqualifies them as a legitimate christian organization, however they are a legitimate mormon organization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caughtinside Posted March 20, 2008 Group: Nonbeliever Followers: 0 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 120 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/15/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted March 20, 2008 I think that leads to a good way to rephrase the opening question: What is a "legitimate Christian organization", and who decides? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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