EricH Posted March 17, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted March 17, 2008 Here is another interesting article: http://www.dlarsen.com/documents/who_does_god_hate.aspx An interesting distinction is God's general tendency (to love) vs a conditional tendency (to hate). According to the article it is possible for God to demonstrate His love to those He hates. As I think about this, it occurs to me that this is because all of God's attributes are held in perfection. Even when God hates the sinner, that is conditioned and motivated by His attribute of love (God never favors one attribute overr another, or suspends one to exercise another). So it is possible for God to hate the sinner because of their actions, yet continue to reach out to them in love (general goodness in creation, sending Jesus etc). This is impossible for us to grasp because when we hate, we hate. It is really more marvelous. That God can love the sinner despite hating them because of sinful actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneLight Posted March 17, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.23 Reputation: 9,762 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted March 17, 2008 It truly is hard to understand exactly what God feels toward sinners with my finite mind. I understand what all the links are talking about, but there is still a small piece of my thinking that considers them oxymoron statements ... maybe my lil' brain needs a rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricH Posted March 17, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 366 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 10,933 Content Per Day: 1.57 Reputation: 212 Days Won: 1 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted March 17, 2008 Moved from General Discussion to Doctrinal Questions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heresyhunter Posted March 17, 2008 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 170 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/24/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted March 17, 2008 I believe that a "worker of iniquity" is one who habitually practices sin, division, causes contentions, and is actively in opposition to the gospel of Jesus Christ. it is not someone who simply lives as a sinner, ignorant of his natural condition But to live as a sinner is to habitually practice sin, is it not? Don't we all work iniquity everytime we sin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted March 17, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted March 17, 2008 I believe that a "worker of iniquity" is one who habitually practices sin, division, causes contentions, and is actively in opposition to the gospel of Jesus Christ. it is not someone who simply lives as a sinner, ignorant of his natural condition But to live as a sinner is to habitually practice sin, is it not? Don't we all work iniquity everytime we sin? In ignorance, yes. Whereas a "worker" of iniquity does so of his own volition, knowingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ddavid from NC Posted March 17, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 196 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,343 Content Per Day: 0.23 Reputation: 12 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/15/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/03/1964 Author Share Posted March 17, 2008 Here is another interesting article: http://www.dlarsen.com/documents/who_does_god_hate.aspx An interesting distinction is God's general tendency (to love) vs a conditional tendency (to hate). According to the article it is possible for God to demonstrate His love to those He hates. As I think about this, it occurs to me that this is because all of God's attributes are held in perfection. Even when God hates the sinner, that is conditioned and motivated by His attribute of love (God never favors one attribute overr another, or suspends one to exercise another). So it is possible for God to hate the sinner because of their actions, yet continue to reach out to them in love (general goodness in creation, sending Jesus etc). This is impossible for us to grasp because when we hate, we hate. It is really more marvelous. That God can love the sinner despite hating them because of sinful actions. You make a good point here Eric. I may take it further than you would take it with my comment. I am willing to be vulnerable to correction here. We are told to love our enemies, because we don't simply know the result of the end time harvest. It was Paul present at the martyrdom of Stephen who would be the greatest evangelist, but at that moment an enemy of God. As we are all prior to new birth. Jesus demonstrated a love for His enemies, because He demonstrated the way for humanity. It seems He is willingly in the dark according to John 17's High Priestly Prayer, when He says here are those you gave me. But God in His Sovereignty is not in the dark to who are His, so His actions are perfect inside of His perfect counsel. He loves who He loves, and He hates who He hates. Another angle to consider, the position of love includes the possiblity to hate as a coponent of love. Example: You come home one night to your family, and there has been a home invasion. You find your wife and children being grossly mistreated and their life threatened. You have been undetected and you know where a gun is hidden. At that moment motivated by love and hate you take action. How much stronger would that action be with a God who is both sovereign and powerful? Sinners are enemies of God, they seek to destroy that which is precious to God. The offer of grace is sovereign, His mercy until the fullness of time in our lives. The views I have expressed here are spontaneous and a process. I reserve the right to back up, edit, or change as I study and consider. So please read them with carefulness they are intended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heresyhunter Posted March 17, 2008 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 6 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 170 Content Per Day: 0.03 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/24/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted March 17, 2008 In ignorance, yes. Whereas a "worker" of iniquity does so of his own volition, knowingly. I'd like to see Biblical evidence that some sin is non-volitional. I'd also like to see some evidence that a worker of iniquity is distinct from any other kind of sinner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ddavid from NC Posted March 17, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 196 Topics Per Day: 0.03 Content Count: 1,343 Content Per Day: 0.23 Reputation: 12 Days Won: 1 Joined: 01/15/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/03/1964 Author Share Posted March 17, 2008 I have a working definition for "iniquity". Sin with no excuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted March 17, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted March 17, 2008 In ignorance, yes. Whereas a "worker" of iniquity does so of his own volition, knowingly. I'd like to see Biblical evidence that some sin is non-volitional. I'd also like to see some evidence that a worker of iniquity is distinct from any other kind of sinner. I didn't write that sin was non-volitional. I wrote that the worker of iniquity sins knowingly - in disobedience to the law, if you like. The worker of iniquity knows the law and choses to sin. What is more, he choses to partake in actions which are in direct opposition to God's commandments, and delights in those that do likewise: "Who, though fully knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, not only do them, but also have fellow delight in those who practice them." (Rom. 1:32) "The Son of Man will send His angels, and they will collect out of His kingdom all the stumbling blocks and those who practice lawlessness," (Matt. 13:41) A person born into sin sins in ignorance to the law: "For as many as have sinned without the law shall also perish without the law; and as many as have sinned under the law shall be judged by the law" (Rom. 2:12) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovedya Posted March 17, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 375 Topics Per Day: 0.05 Content Count: 11,400 Content Per Day: 1.44 Reputation: 125 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/30/2002 Status: Offline Birthday: 08/14/1971 Share Posted March 17, 2008 I have a working definition for "iniquity". Sin with no excuse. Actually in the Hebrew it's more like "wickedness." A worker of iniquity is one who works - or practices - wickedness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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