Rapture

[Guest LadyC]

First of all, I have already ANSWERED your questions in my previous posts as to what I believe the Mark is. I have searched the scriptures and have used the "spiritual word to interpret the spiritual word".

well you'll have to forgive me if i haven't bothered to read many of your posts. i find them long winded and highly speculative, not to mention very critical, hateful, and ungodly towards anyone who's understanding of scripture doesn't mesh with yours.

What do you think these verses mean:

Isaiah 55:8-9 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Then consider:

1 Cor 2:13-14 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

i think they mean exactly what they say. man's logic can't fathom the extent of God's infinite wisdom. He sees what we can't, and His ways are based on the bigger picture. i find these passages very accurate for describing spiritual warfare in general, but do not see how they difinitively relate to the mark of the beast.

One thing I have found with the Bible, is that God speaks very redundantly. He tells us the same thing over and over in many different ways, so that His meaning becomes quite clear. If one passage is not very clear, then one or more other passages help to clear the issue up. This is also the case with the MoB. In other posts on Worthy Forum I have addressed the issue of the MoB, even as I have here.

me too ernie. i believe God redundantly talks about the mark of the beast being placed in the forehead or right hand. since it is necessary for persecuters to recognize and identify those who are believers, i think it is evident that it must be a physical mark of some sort. i believe that since it is required to purchase items, the chip implant is very likely that.

You say that those that are saved during the Great Tribulation, are "saved without the aid of the Holy Spirit". So how about applying this same verse above to them? Do you not see that it is impossible to receive the Gospel of Jesus Christ WITHOUT the Holy Spirit? Please investigate this further, for it is a very key point in anyone's salvation, and YOU need to know it.

may i remind you of the scriptures you quoted? "my ways are not your ways". the Holy Spirit does draw us. when the Holy Spirit is no longer on this earth, i believe that God will find another way to get through to people. most likely the people left behind who turn to God will wake up to reality and use common sense to deduct that the Bible must actually be true when millions of people vanish.

for the record, God didn't send the Holy Spirit to Abraham to draw him near to God. God went directly to Abraham and confronted him.

now as for how it pertains to me, i know exactly how instrumental the Holy Spirit was in bringing me to Christ and the role it had in my salvation.... and yours. but we're not discussing the hear and now when the Holy Spirit is present and active, we're discussing the future when the Spirit has left.

if i'm incorrect and the Holy Spirit has not left, but has just quit refereeing, then that still doesn't give me any reason to believe the pre-trib theory is wrong. it would simply indicate that i was wrong about where the Holy Spirit would be.

Being "in training" means that we are learning NOW, to "put on the full Armor of God", and we are learning to "love, even as Christ has loved us".

interesting that you should say that. i don't recall Christ ever accusing me of being a heretic or implying that i was stupid because i believe scripture more fully supports the theory of pre-trib.

oh, and i do give due consideration to what the word actually says, and place little import on what man, including the man Dad Ernie, has taught.

one more thing regarding the chang thing...

it was fiction.

[Guest LCPGUY]

Sam,

Yes, the Bible clearly defines it as a physical mark of some kind. The only way you can up with another meaning is to treat the subject as symbolical. I choose to take it literally.

Also, if a person is truly saved, it would be impossible for him/her to take the mark. Once God's, always God's. He will not let us slip away from Himself.

Bro John

[Guest shadow2b]

-may i remind you of the scriptures you quoted? "my ways are not your ways". the Holy Spirit does draw us. when the Holy Spirit is no longer on this earth, i believe that God will find another way to get through to people. most likely the people left behind who turn to God will wake up to reality and use common sense to deduct that the Bible must actually be true when millions of people vanish.

-uhhhhhh??LadyC-----Please RE-think your "thoughts"on this matter of {when the

-HOLY-SPIRIT}is NOT??on the earth--Because HE has been REmoved when

-the "church"is REmoved as "HE" resides IN the individual-Church-members.....

-THere is absolutely NO-WAY--Any sinner can be brought to GOD"WITHOUT" the

-HOLY-SPIRIT DRAWS him---

-John.6.vs.44------

-"Don't murmur among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up in the last day.

-John.6.vs.63-----

-IT is the spirit that quickeneth:the flesh profiteth nothing:the words that I speak unto you,they are spirit,and they are life......

-JOHN 14:17....

-"The Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him."

-1st. Corinthians 2:vs.14.------

-But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

-Sooooooo--LadyC-mayhap these scriptures "MIGHT"??be of "some"help to you--

-on whether or NOT the HOLY-SPIRIT IS the "restraining"influence on SIN-& E-VILE

-& whether or NOT the ones"left behind"will or can use {COMMON-SENSE??}to

-believe ON & IN JESUS-YESHUA-& be saved-----One more thing for you to PLEASE

-CONSIDER is that there is a BIG DIFFERENCE between the wrath--anger of the

-devil wich "The church??"does endure during {The Great-Tribulation??}

-Rev.6.vs.9-

-And when he had opened the fifth seal,I saw{UNDER THE ALTAR}the souls of

-them that were"SLAIN"for the WORD OF GOD,and for the"Testimony"which

-they held........

-which isNOT"The Wrath of GOD"which is poured out ON The UNREPENTENT-

-SINNERS--dis-believing-OR NOT accepting JESUS-YESHUA as THEIR SAVIOUR--

-REV.16.vs.1------

-And I heard a great voice out of the Temple saying to the seven angels,Go your

-ways,and pour out the vials of the {WRATH OF GOD}upon the earth...

-One more thing to consider is that the book of REVELATIONS isNOT in

-chronological order...Just some "Thoughts"for your consideration---Mebby??Huhh?

-MAY-GOD-BLESS-&-KEEP-YOU--------yo ever-learnin Brother-Gary- :hug:

- :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: :hug: duhh-

[Guest LadyC]

shadow, i'll be the first to acknowledge (and i think i have) that i really don't know how people will come to believe after the rapture, and have applied my own reasoning, however faulty, to the question. and yes, the scriptures you pointed out do indicate that my reasoning is probably very faulty. but it is clear that after the rapture, many will come to serve God, refuse the mark, and defy the one-world-government-garbage.

"my thoughts are not your thoughts, and my ways are not your ways" applies here... because i don't know the mind of God or how He will accomplish this. i just know that he will. i can speculate til the end of time, but until we are all in heaven, NONE of us, not you, not ernie, not me, not lcpguy, will know the answer.

and bottom line, when we believe the rapture will occur is not a prerequisite for salvation.

[serotta]

Lady C said:

and bottom line, when we believe the rapture will occur is not a prerequisite for salvation.

I agree completely. Dad Ernie you are correct that the 2nd coming of Christ is important to our salvation, but the TIMING of that return is not. No one knows the the hour or the day...

[Guest shadow2b]

-and bottom line, when we believe the rapture will occur is not a prerequisite for salvation.

-YES MAAM LadyC--YOU are VERY CORRECT about that & I'M NOT argue-ing nor

-will I About WHEN the rapture occurs---I just thought you "MIGHT"??like to study

-some scriptures that "MIGHT"??help in your understanding of the rapture...

-"my thoughts are not your thoughts, and my ways are not your ways" applies here...

-uhhhh?LadyC Maam--SIS.perhaps I'M wrong but I thought WE were studying the

-scriptures that GOD left us to "HELP"?US understand HIS WORDS not HIS WAYS

-OR HIS THOUGHTS--per-say--

-In all honesty SIS I think"maybe"?that scripture does NOT apply in this situation

-I'M NOT argue-ing for this point of view or position on the rapture,but just trying

-to present some scriptures that might?? be of help---I mean WE do HAVE his word

-& should try our dadggummdest to"understand"what HE did leave us--HIS WORD-

-I have over the years been "forced" to"CHANGE"my views on a LOTTA things I

-was very dogmatic about--BEFORE I was shown some "scriptures"I had NEVER

-considered before--"THAT" is LEARNING--being "TAUGHT"by people I had before

-had absolutely NO RESPECT for as fas as"knowing"scripture was concerned...

-Which to say the least is VERY embarrassing- duhh?humiliating-

-BUT MOST of all VERY"humbling" but in the long-run is very enlightening...

-I try to be "teachable"any more,since I have come to the conclusion,due to the

-pre-ceeding "humbling"events-That I DO-NOT know everything--which you might

-find hard ta believe about me,since I heretofore,DID KNOW EVERYTHING-----

-thassajoke??ye know?? :oww: -Now back to our regularly scheduled

-programing-so pay A-ten-shun--frum now on or else ya got thatt?

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings LadyC,

but it is clear that after the rapture, many will come to serve God, refuse the mark, and defy the one-world-government-garbage.

Can you show me the scriptures which say "many will be saved AFTER the rapture"?

If they are "saved", it means that they have been saved through knowledge of the Gospel of Jesus Christ which is God's power unto salvation for the Jew first and then for the gentile. You mean to tell me that only a PART of the Bride of Christ is going to be "raptured"? Aren't those saved during the Great Tribulation also a part of the bride? Is Christ going to leave even one of His sheep behind? What do the scriptures say?

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Serota,

I agree completely. Dad Ernie you are correct that the 2nd coming of Christ is important to our salvation, but the TIMING of that return is not. No one knows the the hour or the day...

It is true that "no one knows the day or the hour", but you fail to recognize that we WILL know the season. The Lord ALWAYS tells his prophets before He does something.

Now for a pre-tribber, they believe that they will be "outta here" before the Beast begins waging war against Christians. Therefore they will not have to worry about the Mark of the Beast. I believe most of us realize that this "great tribulation" will be so bad, that nothing like it has ever been or ever again shall be. If the Lord did not "cut those days short, not even the elect would survive". NOW THAT'S BAD!

It is no wonder people want to "escape it". HOWEVER, before that occurs, God is going to make sure that ALL of HIS saints are fully armored and filled with the Holy Spirit and will be operating as under the spirit of Elijah. This is the ONLY WAY Christians are going to survive that terrible time.

Please verify what I have just said. Now if God is preparing us NOW, why would He take us out before it even happens? Do you not see the inanity of it?

However, since the pre-tribs are going to be outta here, it becomes pretty obvious that THEY won't be prepared for the persecution and the trials which are to come upon this world. AND they WILL take the MoB.

OTOH, post-tribs will have been prepared for persecution and they will recognize the "man of sin" when he comes on the scene, AND they will KNOW to NOT take the Mark of the Beast, because it will be fully revealed AT THAT TIME AND NOT BEFORE just what it is.

Personally I would like to see a pre-trib rapture, but I KNOW that I won't. So I put on that Armor of God and get used to it. I learn how to use it. I go forward fearlessly, knowing that God has prepared me for the time that is to come.

So YES, it IS very important whether the Word is clear on this. If one were to study to show themselves approved, rightly dividing the Word of Truth, THEN they too would know the truth.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Guest LadyC]

good grief, this is why i normally stay out of the eschatology forums, and would have if this hadn't origionated in another forum.

those who come to serve God after the tribulation will still be here when Christ returns to set up His Kingdom on earth... seems people think the rapture is the second coming... actually, the rapture occurs in the sky. the second coming occurs after the 7 years have ended.

during those 7 years, there will be a multitude of believers. there will be the 144,000. there will be those who refuse the mark of the beast. the rapture won't leave the true believers behind. it will leave behind those who are not saved. many of them will persevere til the end. (or the beginning, if you choose to think of the end of this sin infested world as a good thing since it ushers in the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth). you want scriptures ernie? go look them up. the Bible spells this out. i'm not going to continue arguing with you. i'm going up in the rapture whether it happens pre-, mid-, or post. i'll see you in the sky ernie. if you want to keep arguing it then, my attention will be on God, not on you, so you'll be arguing with yourself. in fact, you can do that now if you'd like.

for the record, i think it's awfully arrogant for you to tell serotta that she fails to recognize that we'll know the season. i'm sure serotta recognizes that we are already IN the season.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings LadyC,

You may want to get a hold of God now and ask which ones Jesus is going to "leave behind" of His bride. I'm sure He will tell you for He is a rewarder of those who "diligently" seek Him.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie