polygamist sect hearing in texas decends into farce

[anitarose]

why is it so bad?

I cannot believe you asked that question....

[Rick-Parker]

That "story" is cute. And has nothing to do with the current situation we are talking about. Again, what about the rape victims? WHAT ABOUT THEM? Who is watching out for them? You are still defending these people in the guise of their so called rights. What about the basic human rights of these children? I've asked 3 guestions of you. Why won't you folks answer them? Or is it a violation of your right not to incriminate yourselves.

[His_Own]

That "story" is cute. And has nothing to do with the current situation we are talking about. Again, what about the rape victims? WHAT ABOUT THEM? Who is watching out for them? You are still defending these people in the guise of their so called rights. What about the basic human rights of these children? I've asked 3 guestions of you. Why won't you folks answer them? Or is it a violation of your right not to incriminate yourselves.

Brandon's Popo,

That "story" has lots of similarities:

People who are peaceably minding their own business (in the case of the story, people who are known to be godly to HIM)

Outsiders who have no understanding of what is happening

A call to authorities

Authorities who assume guilt

Authorities who split up families without evidence

Authorities who keep children from their parents during investigation

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Brandon's Popo, I agree with you that rape is destructive beyond words. Victims need all the support they can get. I have seen it ruin lives. You cannot know how deeply it has touched mine. But I have heard Nothing of rape victims in this story. From what I have heard in the press, it started with a phone call that appears to be from one who is not even from the area. (a set up?) Even the authorities have stated that there has been absolutely NO abuse that they have found among ANY of the boys or the girls younger than 13. They only question whether there might be abuse of the girls that are teens, but have not yet verified it. But, they are taking ALL the children anyway!

Even Texas law stated that it was okay for a 14 year old to marry with their parents' consent! That is until less than 2 years ago. Then, after this group moved in, they changed the law to 16, specifically because of this group. These were marriages with the parents consent. So, even if they did happen to find a marriage with a 14 year old, they would have been legal marriages prior to the change in the law. They have stated that the new head (Warren Jeffs?) was not careful about the age - but he is gone. Justice has been done.

What about the basic human rights of these children? Precisely!! They have a right to be with their parents! They have a right not to be detained without their permission or the permission of their parents! They have a right to live in an environment they believe to be godly - away from the polluted language, games, TV, video, politics, etc. that our culture spews out to defile the lives of all it touches. The have a right to wear modest clothing without being made fun of. What about their basic rights!!! Have you not heard of the horror stories in the foster care system? I know several foster care families who continually have to fight for the children to get their basic needs met! And those are the ones that our Father has raised up!! There IS abuse - including sexual abuse - in that system! That is a KNOWN fact. So they take them out of a system they THINK MIGHT be abusive, and put them into a system that they KNOW has abuse in it!!

I once belonged to a conservative Baptist Church. One of the elders had a young teen daughter who had made a habit of stating that she was staying overnight with a friend, when she was in fact out partying. So, they started calling (prior to cell phones) to "wish her good night", etc. And, if she was not there, they would ground her. She filed a report for child abuse.

If the authorities had responded to this report as they did to the phone call which was made, they would have gotten the Feds involved, gotten armored vehicles and swat teams, surrounded our little church, removed our women and children, put all the children in foster care. There would have been more evidence in instance because the report was written, made by an actual member of the church. But, it still would have been an UNSUBSTANTIATED report. That, sir, is NOT right!

YES, we are to protect the helpless! But there are SOOOO MANY ways to protect the helpless that do NOT violate rights. The sheriff had established a relationship with the leaders. They could have quietly asked to interview the young women, or quietly escorted them off the ranch, rather than terrifying the entire community - even the nation, with their actions. The call was NOT about child abuse, but about a man abusing his wife!! She was (had the call been real) 16 - so she was even legal age to marry!!

This, to me, is a direct attack on "fundamental Christians". It is a pattern with societies. They attack those that do not "fit". If they get by with that, they start attacking segments with greater and greater populations and influence until they feel free to ship entire cultures to the gas chambers. The media helps by demonizing those whose rights have been violated. They make it extreme Black vs. White. You are either defending the children or defending "predators". They present the story so that there is no room to consider other viable, reasonable alternatives. They polarize the populace. And we tend to fall for it, time after time, after time. Just look at this thread! United we Stand; Divided we Fall.

PLEASE read the history of Germany before World War II. Those who desire to subdue a free people ALWAYS made up some highly emotional excuse that required them to violate the rights of a group they could demonize in order to "protect" someone or something. Please, go to youtube.com and search for Naomi Wolf. Yes, she is liberal, but she has studied this and she is the best presenter for these points (which I first heard from fundamental Christians) that I have seen. Don't just take her word for it, or mine. Study it yourself. It is not just Germany that did this. There is a checklist that is consistently used to destroy nations, and we are so very near the end. You are right to be emotional about this. Our very existence as a nation depends on how we respond to these cases. It MUST be in LOVE and in HIS Spirit and wisdom.

You started your paragraph with a comment about my post. Then you stated "I've asked three questions of you" I am not sure what three questions you are referring to. I do hope that I addressed them all. If I did not, perhaps we should continue this conversation with PMs, rather than take the thread off topic.

I appreciate your care for the helpless. In this time, it is so easy for one's love to grow cold. In tragedies, there is often more than one helpless side. I know that if I was one of the parents in this situation, I would feel helpless, apart from Him.

May we see with His eyes and discern with His wisdom.

:emot-hug:

Edited April 24, 2008 by His_Own

[Scarletprayers]

When it comes to charges of child abuses, the government/agencies always act first and ask questions later. Thats good and bad. If abuse is going on, it needs to be stopped immediately. If its not, they figure better safe than sorry.

False report or not...............MINORS ARE PREGNANT! Bunches of them!

Anybody who thinks thats okay as long as long as "rights and liberties" are safe.........well in my opinion, as more problems than the Constitution.

[Richard_yaash]

This has been going on for over 2 CENTURIES now.

Since Utah was not a state until 1896, your argument is somewhat fallacious. While I do understand your point, one could argue that the US should return to being a British territory/colony.

Crime of some sort exists everywhere in the world. It exists in every state of the union, should we revoke the statehood of every state because crime exists within it? No.

If the Territory of Utah and the Church of Latter Day Saints would have faced the problem before becoming a State, we wouldn't have this problem NOW.

We could make the same argument with regard to crime everywhere.

And because of that, the "State" of Utah has broken a legal binding contract with the Federal Government

Yet, the founding 'fathers' also broke faith and covenant with Britian. Just because "crime" exists, or because a "crime" is committed does not mean we should revoke statehood.

Just imagine if our loving Father revoked the citizenship of the "Church" in heaven if we sinned. We are all members of the "Church", should the "Church's" citizenship in heaven be revoked because of the sin of some? Should we hold the whole of the "Church" which was been around for nearly 2 millennia responsible for this "sin"? Is not the "Church" even more responsible than the "State"?

Or: Do we want the "State" to police and patrol the "Church"? Is that not in part why the "colonists/founding 'fathers'" broke away from Britian? Since such may indeed be the case, should the US return to being under British rule?

I say go to the beginning and punish the ones who allowed it to happen in the first place---the "State" of Utah and the Church of Latter Day "Saints". And I don't want any mainstream Mormons telling me they aren't involved in it---they ALLOWED IT TO HAPPEN. The FLDS is an offshoot of the Church of Latter Day "Saints", don't tell me they aren't---the only difference between the two is their belief in polygamy.

And we could make the same arguments with regard to any 'branch/offshoot' of any denomination with regard to "crime/sin".

Put blame and punishment where it truly belongs.

With and upon those individuals who break the law. Or have we not heard:

"The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him."

OTOH:

Ezekiel 3:18 When I say to a wicked man,

[His_Own]

False report or not...............MINORS ARE PREGNANT! Bunches of them!

Anybody who thinks thats okay .........well in my opinion, as more problems than the Constitution.

But many states ALLOW those as young as 14 to marry with the consent of their parents. Texas did until a few months ago (less than 2 years). Some states allow marriage without consent as young as 16. It is even LEGAL for a minor who is married to be pregnant. (A minor is usually considered to be someone who is not legal age. Legal age has varied between 16-21.) If it is legal and they are married why would you have a problem with that?

Now, if you are talking about the massive rate of promiscuity among the young in our society, and the "entertainment" industry that is programming them to think these things are okay, the abortion, poverty, destruction of family units, disease and all that goes with it. I would agree, that should be addressed. But it should be addressed by His Own! It is the church who has abdicated its responsibility. It was never intended to be the role of a secular government. So, in that sense, we, the church, by not caring for His helpless ones, have brought this upon ourselves. We should not have abdicated. We should not have allowed the enemy an open door to so violently rip apart families.

Edited April 24, 2008 by His_Own

[redwing]

from the drudge report:

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080422/D9073MGG0.html

[redwing]

just received this e-mail from my son:

SAN ANGELO, Texas - For 21/2 weeks, more than 400 children who lived on a polygamist compound in western Texas have been in state custody, exiled from home but relatively close to the parents who are fighting accusations of abuse within the sect.

But with a court order signed Tuesday, about a quarter of the children were moved from the San Angelo Coliseum, loaded onto buses and taken to foster care facilities around the city and elsewhere. By week's end, all 437 children are likely to be scattered across the state in 16 facilities.

A group of 114 children boarded buses Tuesday while adult members of the sect reported to nearby Eldorado to give their DNA as part of court-ordered genetic testing meant to untangle complicated family trees. The children eagerly waved and smiled at television cameras, even as attorneys for the children complained they weren't warned their clients would be moved so quickly.

The remaining 300 children at the coliseum were still undergoing DNA testing and were expected to be moved on Thursday, said Guy Choate, a state bar official who has been coordinating the attorneys brought from all over the state to represent the children.

State District Judge Barbara Walther signed the order Tuesday allowing the state to begin moving the children into temporary foster care while the state completes DNA testing and develops individual custody and treatment plans.

[His_Own]

Thanks so much for keeping us up to date. All those involved and affected, children, parents, your son, daughter-in-law, and I am sure you are feeling the pain of it as well, are in our prayers.

[ladypeartree]

False report or not...............MINORS ARE PREGNANT! Bunches of them!

Anybody who thinks thats okay .........well in my opinion, as more problems than the Constitution.

But many states ALLOW those as young as 14 to marry with the consent of their parents. Texas did until a few months ago (less than 2 years). Some states allow marriage without consent as young as 16. It is even LEGAL for a minor who is married to be pregnant. (A minor is usually considered to be someone who is not legal age. Legal age has varied between 16-21.) If it is legal and they are married why would you have a problem with that?

Now, if you are talking about the massive rate of promiscuity among the young in our society, and the "entertainment" industry that is programming them to think these things are okay, the abortion, poverty, destruction of family units, disease and all that goes with it. I would agree, that should be addressed. But it should be addressed by His Own! It is the church who has abdicated its responsibility. It was never intended to be the role of a secular government. So, in that sense, we, the church, by not caring for His helpless ones, have brought this upon ourselves. We should not have abdicated. We should not have allowed the enemy an open door to so violently rip apart families.

Well I am not a lawyer ( ) and I am not even American so I may not have the facts right but I do remember reading somewhere that the law allowed for children under 16 to marry with their parents consent AS LONG AS THERE WAS NO MORE THAN A 2 YEAR AGE GAP BETWEEN THE MARRIAGE PARTNERS....from what we are reading it appears that not only are some of the "husbands" old enough to be the girls father ( or even grandfather in some cases) but that hte girl is given no choice in the matter but is told that they have to obey the husband that is chosen for them ..in most peoples eyes ( as in the eye of the law that we all agree to uphold even if we do not fully agree with every law) THAT IS RAPE.

As for comparing it to "promiscuity amongst the young in our society" ...at least they have the right to chose and the knowledge that they would be supported if they were raped and you have a very easy means of not watching "the entertainment industry" ..the women and children of that compound have not even had the freedom of choice or the knowledge that they CAN chose