The Gospels and Paul

[nebula]

I need to stop right here for a moment. I am bothered by your choice of words here - "and accept Christianity." Why did you word it this way?

When I came to Jesus, it was for Jesus, and I accepted His salvation and His Lordship - not a religion.

Christianity is not a religion. Denominationalism is a religion. Christianity is the divine nature that we live when we live our lives by the word of God.

The difference between what you are saying and what I am saying is that you are focusing on your ability to save yourself by your good deeds; I am saying it is Jesus who saves us.

1 Peter 1:3-4

3 His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

You are talking about a lifestyle; I am talking about a transformation.

2Co 3:18 - And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

It is not sins (evil deeds) that keep a person from God - it is the lack of faith in Jesus that keeps a person from God.

Not according to the scriptures.

Did you not read the passage of Scripture I posted?

But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear. - Isaiah 59:2

You need to read this verse in context, too.

If you read on, you will find that this sentence is leading to a greater climax:

Isaiah 59:16 - He saw that there was no man, And wondered that there was no intercessor; Therefore His own arm brought salvation for Him; And His own righteousness, it sustained Him.

You see, again, this is our disagreement. Your claim is that salvation is about us. I, and the others, are arguing that salvation is about Him!

If God is looking for non-sinners, none of us would make it into Heaven. Granted, those whose hearts are the LORD's will desire to please Him and make the effort not to sin.

But to claim that Heaven vs. Hell is about sin and not faith is out of touch with the heart of God.

You need to understand that, yes we do sin every day, but God has classified that the world is made up "sinners" and "Christians", also known as sheep and goats. The difference between the two is that sinners have chosen to keep a life of sin away from obedience to God and Christians have chosen to live their lives according to the word of God.

Again, your focus is you and your works. We are focusing on Jesus and His works in us.

What God is looking for is this -

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. - John 4:23-24

If we are a true seeker to worship him in spirit and in truth our sins will be forgiven. If we refuse to give up our sins then we will die in our sins and go to hell.

I am wondering if we need to have a discussion on worship now.

I have given scriptures that point out that certain sins will keep us out of heaven. Believe them or not.

And I had posted a Scripture about faith, and I can post more.

Believe them or not.

[exrockstar]

So we have in the New Testament two things going on, entering and inheriting the Kingdom of heaven? I don't see that at all. I would have to agree with Det on that, it is splitting hairs; Paul was talking about salvation.

it's really not splitting hairs but hey....dismiss it if ya like.

point is that det originally had a disargeement about sinning sending a believer to hell.

all believers go to the bema seat but heaven or hell judgement is not what takes place there.

maybe some one hasnt told him (or her).

A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. - Matthew 12:35-37

Is this speaking of just sinners or the whole world? Prove it by scripture.

Q: Is this speaking of just sinners or the whole world?

A: both really.

believer @ bema: 1 Cor 3:10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. read that whole section aka "loss of rewards"

unbeliever @ white throne: Rev 20:12....The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books."

I have read it and that is a far stretch to say that there are two different thrones when I have given scriptures that say that the the sheep and the goats will be judged by what they did in this life and the goats go to hell for their lack of obedience, as well as others.

let me get this right son. you asked me a question and i answered it with scripture. now you want to correct me?

then why ask?

next time dont ask me and just post your views....thanks in advance.

[Guest]

let me get this right son. you asked me a question and i answered it with scripture. now you want to correct me?

then why ask?

next time dont ask me and just post your views....thanks in advance.

Kind Of Gets The Old Blood Flowing Sometimes Does It

Would God

Keep His Word

Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. Isaiah 1:18

Could Evil Men Lie

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

Would Any Deny The Grace Of God

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

And The Works He Made For Us To Walk In

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:10

The Beloved Born Again Children Of The KING OF KINGS

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: Romans 8:14-16

Amen!

[EricH]

deut,

What do you understand the gospel to be. How is one brought into a relationship with God, and maintained there?

[deut31:12]

deut,

What do you understand the gospel to be.

The gospel of Christ are the words of God given to us to tell us what the will of God to save us from our sins.

How is one brought into a relationship with God,

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. - Acts 2:21

For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. - Galatians 3:27

and maintained there?

By faith and abiding in the gospel of Christ by living according to the words given to us.

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. - 2 John 1:9

[deut31:12]

So we have in the New Testament two things going on, entering and inheriting the Kingdom of heaven? I don't see that at all. I would have to agree with Det on that, it is splitting hairs; Paul was talking about salvation.

it's really not splitting hairs but hey....dismiss it if ya like.

point is that det originally had a disargeement about sinning sending a believer to hell.

all believers go to the bema seat but heaven or hell judgement is not what takes place there.

maybe some one hasnt told him (or her).

A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned. - Matthew 12:35-37

Is this speaking of just sinners or the whole world? Prove it by scripture.

Q: Is this speaking of just sinners or the whole world?

A: both really.

believer @ bema: 1 Cor 3:10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. read that whole section aka "loss of rewards"

unbeliever @ white throne: Rev 20:12....The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books."

I have read it and that is a far stretch to say that there are two different thrones when I have given scriptures that say that the the sheep and the goats will be judged by what they did in this life and the goats go to hell for their lack of obedience, as well as others.

let me get this right son. you asked me a question and i answered it with scripture. now you want to correct me?

then why ask?

next time dont ask me and just post your views....thanks in advance.

"son"??? It's rude to talk down to people.

The answer you gave me holds no water as it is not the exegesis of that scripture.

Q: Is this speaking of just sinners or the whole world?

A: both really.

If the scriptures these scriptures are talking about both then that contradicts the idea of believers only going before the Bema Seat. Also, we see here that the righteous are judged like the sinners for what they did in this life under the same things. What Jesus was doing was letting us know that there are things in our lives that we will be judged for that will determine if we go to heaven or hell. These verses prove that.

[Xan]

If the scriptures these scriptures are talking about both then that contradicts the idea of believers only going before the Bema Seat. Also, we see here that the righteous are judged like the sinners for what they did in this life under the same things. What Jesus was doing was letting us know that there are things in our lives that we will be judged for that will determine if we go to heaven or hell. These verses prove that.

Wait, wait I realize I'm just jumping in here, so maybe I missed something, but it sounds like you are saying even Christians will be judged by works/sins and could, in fact, go to hell. I just want this clarified before I go further. Thank you.

[Ovedya]

By faith and abiding in the gospel of Christ by living according to the words given to us.

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. - 2 John 1:9

This is an example of how an erroneous understanding of a certain verse can create a kind of legal approach to the Christian life. This verses does not teach that maintaining (abiding in) certain doctrines assures the believer's eternal life. This is why having a proper Biblical hermeneutic is so important. In the Greek the word that is rendered "transgress" means "to go beyond, to overstep" and the word that is rendered "doctrine" as in "doctrine of Christ" means "teaching of Christ." In context with verses 7-8 this verse talks of the deceivers who deny Christ coming in the flesh (v. 7). So in verse 9, then, the "teaching of Christ" is "Christ has come in the flesh."

Therefore, this verses means that those who "go beyond" the teaching of Christ, and those that do not remain (abide) in the teaching of Christ, do not have God, or "have never had God" in the first place. This verse follows verses 7-8 as a warning to the Corinthian believers of false teachers, Antichrists.

[BurnForChrist]

By faith and abiding in the gospel of Christ by living according to the words given to us.

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. - 2 John 1:9

This is an example of how an erroneous understanding of a certain verse can create a kind of legal approach to the Christian life. This verses does not teach that maintaining (abiding in) certain doctrines assures the believer's eternal life. This is why having a proper Biblical hermeneutic is so important. In the Greek the word that is rendered "transgress" means "to go beyond, to overstep" and the word that is rendered "doctrine" as in "doctrine of Christ" means "teaching of Christ." In context with verses 7-8 this verse talks of the deceivers who deny Christ coming in the flesh (v. 7). So in verse 9, then, the "teaching of Christ" is "Christ has come in the flesh."

Therefore, this verses means that those who "go beyond" the teaching of Christ, and those that do not remain (abide) in the teaching of Christ, do not have God, or "have never had God" in the first place. This verse follows verses 7-8 as a warning to the Corinthian believers of false teachers, Antichrists.

Whats sad is John wrote this letter in response to an early church heresy and now its being interpreted to fit false doctrine.

deut31:12 said "Also, we see here that the righteous are judged like the sinners for what they did in this life under the same things. What Jesus was doing was letting us know that there are things in our lives that we will be judged for that will determine if we go to heaven or hell."

What does "saved by grace through faith" and "not a result of works, so that no one may boast" (Eph. 2:8, 9) mean to you?

Burn

Edited May 22, 2008 by BurnForChrist

[exrockstar]

If the scriptures these scriptures are talking about both then that contradicts the idea of believers only going before the Bema Seat. Also, we see here that the righteous are judged like the sinners for what they did in this life under the same things. What Jesus was doing was letting us know that there are things in our lives that we will be judged for that will determine if we go to heaven or hell. These verses prove that.

ok thanks. i was lost and now im found.