The Gospels and Paul

[eric]

I can only respond with scripture,

John 5:24.Truly, truly, I say unto you. he who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come into judgement, but has passed out death into life. The judgement a christian faces when he arrives home is not about the evil he has done, but the rewards for our faithfulness to Him and His gospel.

Want another? Rom 8:1 There is now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. Now I have no intention of going through the whole bible with you, but if I were you I would brush up a bit on your exegesis.

[Guest]

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered:

for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said,

and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

Joel 2:32

Even as Christians we will be judged by God for our actions according to what we do on this earth.

Oh No!

Why art thou cast down, O my soul? and why art thou disquieted in me? hope thou in God: for I shall yet praise him for the help of his countenance.

Psalms 42:5

Judgement Day

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:15

Condemnation For God's Kids

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:1

Or Could It Be You Meant God's Worship And Reward Banquet

Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 4:4-5

The Outrageous Bodacious Love Of God-With-Us Still Offends Many A Proud And Religious Man

And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands? Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

Mark 6:2-3

Proud Untrusting Suspicious Men Who Follow The Many "I Did It My Way" Signs Straight To The Highway Of Self-Righteousness To Their Eternal Destruction

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Matthew 7:13-14

Mercy Mercy Mercy

Hosanna! Hosanna To The KING!

The Pace Of Grace

Step By Step God Did It

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Romans 5:8

Step By Step Jesus Did It

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Hebrews 12:2

Step By Step Our Abba Did It

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:16

Step By Step Our Daddy Gave It

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Ephesians 2:8-9

Step By Step Our LORD Will Finish It

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Ephesians 2:10

So Step By Step Trust In Him, Believe It

And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

1 John 5:11-13

Step By Step Trust And Abide In Him, Believe It

Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

John 15:3-5

Step By Step Trust Him And Bud With The Fruit Of The Spirit. Believe It

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Galatians 5:22-23

Step By Step Trust In The Word And The Spirit And Obey His Holy Commandments, Believe It

And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Mark 12:29-31

Step By Step Trust In Him And Live From Faith To Faith, Believe It

For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Romans 1:17

Step By Step Trust In Him And Walk In Grace, Believe It

A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

John 13:34-35

Step By Step Trust In Him And Please God, Believe It

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Hebrews 11:6

Step By Step Trust In Him And Cry Daddy, Believe It

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Romans 8:15

And In Total Trust Cry Out Abba I Love You!

Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them.

Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. Psalms 19:14

[psalmone]

I think the tension the brother was referring to is maybe the difference in the style of Paul's epistles compared with the Gospels. Some would say that until the death of the testator (Jesus) it's technically still Old Testament. Paul's writings were in a different season again, post-pentecost, which meant that his writings were quickened with the spirit and zeal of the peculiar revolution that was unfolding.

When I was turned on to faith, it was this unusual Spirit in which Paul wrote that caught my attention most, after which I was led into other truth.

[deut31:12]

I can only respond with scripture,

John 5:24.Truly, truly, I say unto you. he who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come into judgement, but has passed out death into life. The judgement a christian faces when he arrives home is not about the evil he has done, but the rewards for our faithfulness to Him and His gospel.

Want another? Rom 8:1 There is now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. Now I have no intention of going through the whole bible with you, but if I were you I would brush up a bit on your exegesis.

The scriptures you post are in truth, but have their places in context and interpretation. You are taking this verse out of what Jesus was trying to convey to say that a Christian is only judged once and never again. Also, this verse is not the entire definition of Christianity, else we would not be given the rest of the New Testament to live by and follow.

Now, when a Christian is saved, they are afterward commanded to live their lives as Christians abstaining from and putting away sins and lust of the flesh. We will fall into sins and repent of them, but that is not what God is looking at. There are people today who believe that they can keep their sins as Christians because we are saved by our faith alone. Paul has given us many scriptures telling the Christians to put away their sins or they can still be condemned by them.

The scriptures were given to us to teach us what sin is and how to identify it so that we can repent of it. When we learn of the things that we have in our lives that are sins and displease God we have the strength to repent of them. These are the works or our faith that we do. If we have faith in God then we will put away the sins that are outlined through the scriptures and walk in the will of God through the fruits of the Spirit.

For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. - 1 Corinthians 11:31-32

This verse was spoken to Christians by a Christian. If we don't judge ourselves by the scriptures then God will judge us and stand the chance to be condemned with the world.

[deut31:12]

Here is one more of the scriptures that Paul gave us that we are supposed to be doing as Christians that actually do have consequences:

Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: - Colossians 3:2-6

The will of God and works that we are told to do is our mortifying of our members on this earth.

First I would like to state, you may want to add the first verse with what you referenced.

Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Second, By what power do you mortify your members? What does mortify your members mean?

The first verse is a great addition, but doesn't change the meaning of what is being presented.

Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit give us power to mortify the deeds of our members. We couldn't do it without spiritual help. The whole point here is that we are told to do it. We are the ones who choose to or not to give into fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, covetousness, or any other sin of the flesh we are told to abstain from, but we overcome them with the help of God.

According to you a Christian is set through just their faith until death or Jesus comes back, What you are either excluding or ignoring is that while we are still present on this earth we are still supposed to do what the scriptures tell us to do or there is a recompense for not doing them.

By what power do you accomplish the works. Could you uphold scripture before you were saved?

We accomplish the works that we are told to do through the scriptures by the power of God.

Yes, we could uphold scripture before we were saved. There are many moral people in the world that live their lives in shadow of the scriptures that were never saved. What we have after salvation is the power through God to uphold ALL of the scriptures to the best of our abilities. Not everybody will have the same measures of faith, but they will have the power to be faithful.

These are what are called "works". The don't have the power to save us

If they don't have the power to save us, how is it they gain the power to keep us saved?

Again, the works that we are called to do is to uphold the will of God as given to us through scripture. When we are told, "those that stole steal no more", flee fornication, lie not to one another, be sober, etc. we are doing the works that we have been ordained to do. Now, these works have no salvation properties as there are a lot of people on the world that uphold and follow these things that are not saved, atheists, etc. Keeping a commandment doesn't automatically make one saved.

How they have the power to keep one saved is that without them our faith is dead. We are saved by faith, but our faith is dead without our works of obedience to the scriptures. It is sin that keeps people out of heaven.

Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear. - Isaiah 59:1-2

Sin is the separater between man and God. This is not speaking of a sin that I slip up and fall into. It is speaking of sin that I keep in my life that I never repent of. The works that we do is learning of these sins and repenting of them.

Please tell me how we can take pride in repenting from our sins? What pride do I have to take from God when through the strength of God I overcome my sins and mortify the deeds of my flesh?

The above statement contradicts everything you have stated. If it is by the strength of God you overcome then how in the world do you think you have power to do anything else apart from Him. Only God can do God. Once we realize this we will abandon our futile attempts to please Him, and depend on Him to work what is well pleasing to Himself through us.

Nobody is stating that we do anything else apart from Him. People keep understanding and imputing that in there themselves.

I keep giving scripture after scripture showing that it is God that is calling us to do these things, so how people can get out of that what you said is beyond me.

What you are also not understanding is that God is calling us to word. Through your understanding you are visualizing it as, "futile attempts to please Him". What you are doing is calling our doing the will of God as, "futile attempts to please Him".

Are you really that prepared to call our keeping the commandments that Jesus said here as, "futile attempts to please Him"?

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. - John 14:21

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. - John 15:10

And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it. - 2 John 1:6

Jesus says that if we love him to keep his commandments and that by showing our love to him by keeping his commandments we will be loved by the father and himself.

Our works that we do in our keeping of the commandments of Jesus as laid down in the scriptures.

Now, what you have done is come and said that our keeping of the commandments does not please God and that they are, "futile attempts to please Him".

Are you really prepared to make that statement?

Why does the denominational world teach people that our doing the will of God not please God? Why are people being taught that doing the will of God according to scriptures equate to somebody doing things of their own volition to please God their own way?

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.

This is one of the most misquoted and misused scriptures today. Many use this scripture to say that God does all the work for us. What this is saying is that God works with in us to BOTH "will" and "to do of his good pleasure".

God doesn't do all the work for us when we are told to, "work out your own salvation in fear and trembling". He works with our "will", which is our desire/intention to do it. He works with in us as a strength and understanding to "do of his good pleasure". God will always be there to support, aid, and direct us in our walk with him in "living" Christianity.

I am told to do these things:

Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: Neither give place to the devil. Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. - Ephesians 4:25-29

As Christians these are some of the "works" that we have been ordained to walk in (Eph. 2:10), are a part of our working out of our salvation (Phil. 2:12), and how we show our faith by our works (James). We do these this, not of our own volition, nor as futile attempts to please God, but because the scriptures tell us to.

Now, as Christians we will fall into these from time to time, but where God is concerned with is if we have these in our lives and do nothing to abstain from them or repent of them, but we do overcome them with the help of God.

[P_Joseph]

Salvation is by faith alone. True faith changes the heart and will produce good works for the kingdom. A dead faith produces no works or works to glorify themselves and not the Lord Jesus or His kingdom.

Matthew 12:33-35 (The Message)

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[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE

Shiloh

Your works are, or should be the outgrowth of salvation, not the means of either procuring it or maintaining it. Your works could not get you to God, and they are certainly not able to keep you there.

I agree with you that there are no works that we get us to God. Our reconciliation back to God through the death of Jesus is a free gift that warrants nothing from man to do, but we are still commanded to do the will of God by keeping the commandments of Jesus through the New Testament scriptures and if we don't we will forfeit our place in heave.

I see what you are saying but you are ignoring the basic internal contradiction of your position. What you appear to be saying is that we come to God through faith in Christ, but THAT only gets us "in the door" so to speak. Ultimately, according to your position, it is man who must continue to work in order to make sure he gets to heaven. Your position, if we follow it through to its logical conclusion is that works ULTIMATELY decide your eternal future and THAT is I choose to believe the Bible instead of what you teach. In your position, salvation becomes a reward for service.

In short, you believe you are saved because your good works were both good enough and numerous enough to secure your eternal future in heaven and THAT is a workbased salvation and thus, a false gospel. I hope that your position is rejected and repudiateed by all true Christians whose faith is in Christ and in Christ alone.

It doesn't take gymnastics of the scriptures to see or understand this. All it takes is a mindset that you are portraying to ignore, justify away, or contradict some of the scriptures to support your theory.

I don't have any sort of "theory." I simply believe and am obedient to the true gospel and as a result, it is easy for me to spot counterfeit "gospels" like the one you are peddling.

Here is one more of the scriptures that Paul gave us that we are supposed to be doing as Christians that actually do have consequences:

Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: - Colossians 3:2-6

The will of God and works that we are told to do is our mortifying of our members on this earth.

I agree.

According to you a Christian is set through just their faith until death or Jesus comes back, What you are either excluding or ignoring is that while we are still present on this earth we are still supposed to do what the scriptures tell us to do or there is a recompense for not doing them.

Believe me, I am all about works. The difference here is that I disagree with you over what the "recompense" will be. The Bible says teaches that our works are weighed at the judgment seat of Christ to deterimine reward for service to Christ in this life. Our works are NEVER measured to determine our eternal future.

Even at the great white throne judgment, sinners are thrown into the lake of fire for not having their names written in the Lamb's book of life, not for being murderers or adulterers. Being a murderer, idolator, liar, thief or fornicator/adulterer are the outgrowth of separation of God, the reasons for the separation. In the same way, our godly works are the outgrowth of our relationship and union with God in Christ, not the means of procuring or maintaining the relationship.

I also believe there is recompense for disobedience and the Bible says so. God, disciplines His children, but His discipline does not include casting them away when they fail. In your view, God's grace is limited to those who live right and that is the very antithesis of grace. If grace is only extended to the righteous, then it is not grace at all. That God would throw His children away because of their failure (as you suggst) would be considered in human terms as child abuse.

This answer is your own spin on this because that is how you perceive it. I have never given a hint as to supporting this answer you gave. You must personally see doing the works and will of God as something to garner pride from. I don't.

Your view of works is exactly the product of pride. You see your good works as good enough to keep you from forfeiting heaven. That is pride. Your good works are trash. God is not interested in people performing good enough for Him, because they can't. Your good works should be out of loving gratitude for salvation, but instead, you are under the delusion that you have to perform good enough to get to heaven. Your view of salvation is nothing but performance-based acceptance and is more in line with the pagan concept of karma than any teaching of the New Testament.

When we mortify our deeds on this earth we are working out our salvation,

the problem is that you misunderstand "working out your salvation" to mean working FOR your salvation.'

[deut31:12]

Shiloh

Your view of works is exactly the product of pride. You see your good works as good enough to keep you from forfeiting heaven. That is pride. Your good works are trash. God is not interested in people performing good enough for Him, because they can't.

You miss the mark completely on this one by thinking that God is not interested in people doing his will.

He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? - Micah 6:8

This verse is used all the time.

For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; - Colossians 1:9-10

We can walk pleasing before God.

Our works are not trash and I can't believe that you see it that way. Do you not have very much faith in the scriptures that they instructions from God unto righteousness?

This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. - Titus 3:8

If our works of obedience are trash then why would the scriptures tell us that if we believe in God to maintain good works because they are profitable to us? How do they profit us? You know they don't do it in any carnal way.

My works of obedience are not out of pride. They are out of faith because I believe these scriptures, as well as other, that tell us what works are and what they are for.

My mindset in doing what I am told through the scriptures is this:

But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat? And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink? Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not. So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do. - Luke 17:7-10

There is not pride here. I am an unprofitable servant doing my duty as a Christian.

Edited June 30, 2008 by deut31:12

[P_Joseph]

It is by FAITH ALONE FAITH FAITH FAITH !!!!!!

Hebrews 11 (New International Version)

New International Version (NIV)

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[Guest]