ParanoidAndroid Posted July 7, 2008 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 39 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 591 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 14 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/01/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/27/1979 Share Posted July 7, 2008 Hey guys, I just wanted to share an article I read a while back. It's quite long, and unfortunately not available on the internet so I had to copy it from the bookI bought it from. I originally wrote it for a non-Christian site, so I edited it a little bit to get what I felt was the "meat" of the essay. Anyway, it's an article written by a deceased Australian theologian and previous Principal of Sydney's Moore College. It's a lecture he titled "The Five Comings of Christ". i guess most of us are hung up on waiting for Christ's "second coming", but D.B. Knox makes a compelling argument that we're in fact waiting for a fifth. Considering this is a Christian forum (I've never quoted this on a CHrisitan forum before), I was hoping for information. If anyone wants further information, I'll quote it later (as I said, I did edit this to get to the primary concerns of the issues, considering non-Christians have a bad habit of reading over Bible passages and extended paragraphs of rhetoric. I hope this makes sense to you). Just thought I'd share in any case. I'll try and re-post the whole article with the pieces I edited out if I have time. Anyhow: The Five Comings of Jesus "The coming one" is the title that John the Baptist gave to Jesus. Jesus by implication approved (Matt 11:3). The title goes back to the Septuagint. In Daniel 7:13 ho erchomenos, the coming one, is seen with the clouds of heaven and is introduced into the presence of the Ancient of Days who is seated on his throne surrounded by a myriad of holy ones, his saints. Then "the coming one", who is described as like "a son of man", receives from the Ancient of Days "dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all people's nations, languages should serve him." It is an everlasting, indestructible kingdom and dominion over every race of the world. Five different ways of applying the concept of the coming one to Jesus may be distinguished in the New Testament. Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlindSeeker Posted July 7, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,069 Content Per Day: 0.53 Reputation: 428 Days Won: 5 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted July 7, 2008 Hey guys, I just wanted to share an article I read a while back. It's quite long, and unfortunately not available on the internet so I had to copy it from the bookI bought it from. I originally wrote it for a non-Christian site, so I edited it a little bit to get what I felt was the "meat" of the essay. Anyway, it's an article written by a deceased Australian theologian and previous Principal of Sydney's Moore College. It's a lecture he titled "The Five Comings of Christ". i guess most of us are hung up on waiting for Christ's "second coming", but D.B. Knox makes a compelling argument that we're in fact waiting for a fifth. Considering this is a Christian forum (I've never quoted this on a CHrisitan forum before), I was hoping for information. If anyone wants further information, I'll quote it later (as I said, I did edit this to get to the primary concerns of the issues, considering non-Christians have a bad habit of reading over Bible passages and extended paragraphs of rhetoric. I hope this makes sense to you). Just thought I'd share in any case. I'll try and re-post the whole article with the pieces I edited out if I have time. Anyhow: The Five Comings of Jesus "The coming one" is the title that John the Baptist gave to Jesus. Jesus by implication approved (Matt 11:3). The title goes back to the Septuagint. In Daniel 7:13 ho erchomenos, the coming one, is seen with the clouds of heaven and is introduced into the presence of the Ancient of Days who is seated on his throne surrounded by a myriad of holy ones, his saints. Then "the coming one", who is described as like "a son of man", receives from the Ancient of Days "dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all people's nations, languages should serve him." It is an everlasting, indestructible kingdom and dominion over every race of the world. Five different ways of applying the concept of the coming one to Jesus may be distinguished in the New Testament. Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParanoidAndroid Posted July 8, 2008 Group: Senior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 39 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 591 Content Per Day: 0.09 Reputation: 14 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/01/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/27/1979 Author Share Posted July 8, 2008 Interesting . . . the coming are as follows (just seeing if I got it correct) 1. Natural coming as a man child born of a virgin 2. The coming as a warrior to judge Israel 70 A.D. 3. The coming to His coronation of power on the right hand of God. 4. The coming of the Spirit of Christ as the Holy Spirit 5. The return of Christ as a King/warrior to judge the nations and receive His bride. I would not agree chronologically . . . Let’s see what others say . . .In a nutshell, I think that's right. I think though that what you mean by "chronologically" is that the order of the comings is not exactly correct, but you find the overall concept plausible. I agree to an extent. Would it help if I mentioned that this article was a lecture given at Moore College (Theological Seminary in Sydney, Australia), and the lecture was primarily on Matthew 24-25 and the theological implications thereof - which happened to discuss the comings of Jesus. I would assume that the chronological difference is a result that the lecturer/author (Knox) chose to go through Matthew 24-25 chronologically rather than view the five comings chronologically. Does that make sense? edit: Event wise, Chronologically, we would probablly have: 1 - his birth 2 - coronation of power at the Right hand of God 3 - coming of the Holy Spirit 4 - destruction of Jerusalem 5 - the awaited return Would that be your understanding? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MillennialSaint Posted July 8, 2008 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 25 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/19/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted July 8, 2008 Hey, That guy is trying to slip preterism between the cracks. "This generation" means "The Jewish people" not "all the people living at this time." See Jeremiah 2: 31 Christ said He won't return from heaven until the Jewish nation repents and accepts HIm as Messiah (Matt. 23: 39). Also, Peter confirms this statement in Acts 3: 19-21. The Jews never accepted Christ as the Messiah during the Jewish War of A.D. 67-70. Also, the Bible opnly teaches two advents of Christ. We are to look for Him a "second time" when He leaves the Holy Place (Heb. 9: 28). Peace and Health, Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MillennialSaint Posted July 8, 2008 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 25 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/19/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted July 8, 2008 P.S.-- Also, the "abomination of desolation" means "Antichrist," not the Roman armies. None of the early church fathers believed the Jewish War had any eschatological significance. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atonement Posted July 8, 2008 Group: Members Followers: 1 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 67 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/12/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted July 8, 2008 Hey, That guy is trying to slip preterism between the cracks. "This generation" means "The Jewish people" not "all the people living at this time." See Jeremiah 2: 31 Christ said He won't return from heaven until the Jewish nation repents and accepts HIm as Messiah (Matt. 23: 39). Also, Peter confirms this statement in Acts 3: 19-21. The Jews never accepted Christ as the Messiah during the Jewish War of A.D. 67-70. Also, the Bible opnly teaches two advents of Christ. We are to look for Him a "second time" when He leaves the Holy Place (Heb. 9: 28). Peace and Health, Brian Interesting. I wonder though, why Christ spoke about the fig tree blossoming before He said this generation would not pass. What is the fig tree? Cleary it's Israel correct, which is the apple of God's eye? Zec 2:8. So what is interesting in your rebuttal is that if Israel blossoms as mentioned by Christ in Luke 21. Then my questions is how could Israel blossom in 70 AD? When in fact she was destroyed? Let me take this a little step further, when in the last 2000 years did Israel blossom? Was that not until May 14th 1948? Which is also Bible prophecy being fulfilled concering the valley of dry bones coming back to life? Eze 37.. the Bible also speaks about the rebuilding of a third temple correct? What will the Jews be doing in this third temple? Animal sacrifices correct? Dan 9:27; Dan 11:31; Dan 12:11. So it appears that when Christ returns the Jews would be making daily sacrifices. Which is also a reason why their is a Great Tribulation against Israel for not accepting her Messiah in the first place.. At least this is how I understand prophecy. I don't care about the pre-trib, mid- trib or post-trib per se. The fact is you could die today and you need to be ready today. But in general Christ is coming back to fulfill all prophecy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlindSeeker Posted July 8, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,069 Content Per Day: 0.53 Reputation: 428 Days Won: 5 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted July 8, 2008 Hey, That guy is trying to slip preterism between the cracks . . . It gets old when people use such terms as blankets to cover everything they disagree with. Call something a heresy or label a group of people a cult and you can just reject everything they have to share as obvious error . . . because they[/t] believe it. It is like somebody mentioning the Sabbath and suddenly everyone want to talk about the SDA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MillennialSaint Posted July 8, 2008 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 25 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/19/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted July 8, 2008 Hey, That guy is trying to slip preterism between the cracks . . . It gets old when people use such terms as blankets to cover everything they disagree with. Call something a heresy or label a group of people a cult and you can just reject everything they have to share as obvious error . . . because they[/t] believe it. It is like somebody mentioning the Sabbath and suddenly everyone want to talk about the SDA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MillennialSaint Posted July 9, 2008 Group: Members Followers: 0 Topic Count: 0 Topics Per Day: 0 Content Count: 25 Content Per Day: 0.00 Reputation: 0 Days Won: 0 Joined: 06/19/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted July 9, 2008 Hey, That guy is trying to slip preterism between the cracks. "This generation" means "The Jewish people" not "all the people living at this time." See Jeremiah 2: 31 Christ said He won't return from heaven until the Jewish nation repents and accepts HIm as Messiah (Matt. 23: 39). Also, Peter confirms this statement in Acts 3: 19-21. The Jews never accepted Christ as the Messiah during the Jewish War of A.D. 67-70. Also, the Bible opnly teaches two advents of Christ. We are to look for Him a "second time" when He leaves the Holy Place (Heb. 9: 28). Peace and Health, Brian Interesting. I wonder though, why Christ spoke about the fig tree blossoming before He said this generation would not pass. What is the fig tree? Cleary it's Israel correct, which is the apple of God's eye? Zec 2:8. So what is interesting in your rebuttal is that if Israel blossoms as mentioned by Christ in Luke 21. Then my questions is how could Israel blossom in 70 AD? When in fact she was destroyed? Let me take this a little step further, when in the last 2000 years did Israel blossom? Was that not until May 14th 1948? Which is also Bible prophecy being fulfilled concering the valley of dry bones coming back to life? Eze 37.. the Bible also speaks about the rebuilding of a third temple correct? What will the Jews be doing in this third temple? Animal sacrifices correct? Dan 9:27; Dan 11:31; Dan 12:11. So it appears that when Christ returns the Jews would be making daily sacrifices. Which is also a reason why their is a Great Tribulation against Israel for not accepting her Messiah in the first place.. At least this is how I understand prophecy. I don't care about the pre-trib, mid- trib or post-trib per se. The fact is you could die today and you need to be ready today. But in general Christ is coming back to fulfill all prophecy. Hey, Unfortunately, I don't know much about that view. I interpret the "fig tree budding" as meaning "all these signs taking place." Christ was talking about the tribulations that would fall upon the Jewish people. There is supposedly a gathering back to the city by Antichrist, who will rebuild their temple. Then after he's gained power, he'll sit in the temple boasting himself that he is God. When the Jewish nation repents during the tribulation, Christ will return from heaven, & destroy the enemies. Then the Millennium! Peace and Health, Brian P.S.-- I think Ezekiel 37 means "The first resurrection." That is the "hope of Israel" that Paul is talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlindSeeker Posted July 9, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,069 Content Per Day: 0.53 Reputation: 428 Days Won: 5 Joined: 03/22/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted July 9, 2008 Hey, That guy is trying to slip preterism between the cracks . . . It gets old when people use such terms as blankets to cover everything they disagree with. Call something a heresy or label a group of people a cult and you can just reject everything they have to share as obvious error . . . because they[/t] believe it. It is like somebody mentioning the Sabbath and suddenly everyone want to talk about the SDA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts