Is our Christian tolerance a sin?

[BobTriez]

Nicely put Bob! I especially enjoyed your break-down of situations.

Here is another question:

forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

That being the case, if we took that as literal (which I agree with)... Christ forgives us - when we repent and ask for forgiveness. If we don't do this, He doesn't forgive us... (???)

1John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

That also brings up another question:

In the Lord's prayer, it states

Luk 11:4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us.

Mat 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

So, lets say that there is a believer (#1)... who holds a grudge against another believer (#2)... Where does that leave believer #1?

Keeping this scripture in mind as well:

Mat 16:19 (and Mat 18:18) And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Do you think that also fits into the same scenario? Do you think that people confuse "tolerance" with "forgiveness"?

Thanks for your thoughts, and added scriptures!

YSIC,

Alison :hug:

I think in this case you just gave, it will apply to both unbelievers and believers equally. We read in Matthew ( I know is a bit long, but... )

Matthew 18:21-35

21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.

24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.

25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.

26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.

28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.

29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.

31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.

32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:

33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?

34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

It is clear that we must forgive and keep forgiving - that's a command....then Jesus goes one step further and tells the parable about a man who's huge debt is forgiven ( our sin against God ) but then refuses to forgive a comparatively small debt ( a sin against us ). Jesus leaves no ambiguity here that unless you forgive others - and love your enemies - and pray for them ( now that's hard! ) you can't expect God to forgive the huge debt that only Christ could take care of.

Consider this also - which seems VERY clear to answer your question -

Matthew 6:14 -15

14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses

No grey area there!

On a personal note, I recently was sinned against in a very bad way - and as hard as it is for a sinner, I must resist the temptation to go out for revenge against this fellow. Jesus says if someone steals from you, don't ask for it back....if they force you to walk a mile, go two with them. And in the scope of what Christ did, it makes perfect sense. We can not expect God to wipe away our huge debt if we can't even wipe a small transgression.

Jesus taught love and that makes sense - because God is love. That's what He is and expects nothing less from us.

Consider this - Jesus says that it's easy to love those who love us - but to love our enemies ?!?!

Luke 6:32-36

31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.

32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.

33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.

35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

That's hard to do....I admit, but it seems very clear that if we want forgiveness, we must first forgive those who have sinned against us....and on that note, I'd have to say that if you are unwilling to forgive someone of a transgression, you best not partake in the Lord's Supper and that would bring condemnation upon yourself ( 1 Corinthians 11:17-33 )

In His service,

Bob

[Only4Him777]

Praise God for you Bob!

Thank you for being so clear in your responses. I really appreciate that. Thank you also for giving the verses that you did. It helps! Sometimes, we - on our own, find some verses for situations... but somehow overlook/miss others that may clear things up better then the ones that we originally found.

I appreciate you!

YSIC,

Alison :hug:

[Adstar]

Great discussion :il:

The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant

21 Then Peter came to Him and said, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?"

22Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made.

26The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, "Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.' 27Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.

28"But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, "Pay me what you owe!'

29So his fellow servant fell down at his feet and begged him, saying, "Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.' 30And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt.

31So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, "You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?' 34And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

35"So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses."

Note on both occasions the indebted one asked for forgiveness.

If one is willing to continue to contend with us, who will continue to hear us on a matter of faith then we must continue to strive with them. it is only when they refuse to hear us anymore that we are to look apon them like the heathen.

Dealing with a Sinning Brother

15 "Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that "by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.' 17And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

18"Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[kittyjo]

Hi,

I'm new here, I hope I'm not being a 'butinski' but, sometime ago I read some interesting articles about tolerance and thought I'd share them with you...

The New Tolerance vs. Christian Convictions

http://www.crosswalk.com/faith/ministry_ar...es/1187274.html

Truth and Tolerance

http://www.family.org/fofmag/pp/a0024027.cfm

When It Comes To Truth, Tolerance is a Travesty

http://www.crosswalk.com/faith/ministry_ar...html?view=print

[Adstar]

LOL looks like we all replied around the same time

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[BobTriez]

Praise God for you Bob!

Thank you for being so clear in your responses.  I really appreciate that.  Thank you also for giving the verses that you did.  It helps! Sometimes, we - on our own, find some verses for situations... but somehow overlook/miss others that may clear things up better then the ones that we originally found.

I appreciate you!

YSIC,

Alison  :hug:

You are very much welcome...I get just as much a lesson out of answering questions as I do reading threads ( usually more because I must research my answers and always run into something else along the way ). I'm pretty new around here, but I love this place and am so thankful I was led here....it was no accident, that's for sure! You sure are right about different perspectives and such. Sometimes you look right over a Bible verse and someone else will point it out....it's a win - win situation for everyone around here.

Your Brother In Christ,

Bob

[Only4Him777]

Nicely put Adstar! Thanks for the scripture! It is sad when something like that happens...

it is only when they refuse to hear us anymore that we are to look apon them like the heathen.

Thanks for your response!

YSIC,

Alison :hug:

[Only4Him777]

Kittyjo

CROSSWALK

Webster's defines the word "tolerate" as follows:

"to recognize and respect [others' beliefs, practices, etc.] without sharing them" and "to bear or put up with [someone or something not especially liked]."

"new tolerance," which says that what every individual believes or says is equally right and equally valid. In other words, all values, beliefs, lifestyles, and truth claims are equal.

FOCUS ON THE FAMILY

The new tolerance goes beyond respecting a person's rights; it demands praise and endorsement of that person's beliefs, values and lifestyle.

Now my attacker invariably says, "How dare you say that?" or "Who do you think you are?" The issue is no longer the truth of the message, but the right to proclaim it. In the new cultural climate, any unpopular message can be labeled "intolerant" and therefore be repressed.

Christians will face increasing pressure to be silent about their convictions