Women in ministry

[Ovedya]

It comes down to what we are talking about. I simply don't see how we can get around the passages quoted by One Light and others.

However I don't think those passages have anything to do with women in "ministry", which by the way is a modern term and I think most people simply mean involved in the Church in various roles, which women indeed are called to do. Obviously women were called out throughout scripture for extremely important roles. You can't read the New Testament and not see that women are called to preach and prophesize and serve and so forth.

However nowhere in scripture does a women ever hold the role of either Priest in the Old Testament or Bishop in the New, it just is not there. Of course if you are in a Church which has no defined roles or offices, where preaching is seen as the same thing as being a minister etc, then I don't know how much it really matters. I think someone had brought that up earlier that they did not recognize any formal offices anyway. So if that is the case then I don't see how you could deny women from something that does not exist.

I think even in ministries where there are no "official offices" there is still a person or small group which determines the orthodoxy, doctrines, teachings, and direction of the church. It is in that sense that Paul wrote that woman should not teach or exert authority over a man. It would be as if in a household the woman decides how to raise the children, what to teach them, and what direction the family should go in. The Bible clearly distinguishes between the roles of husbands and wives, and that the husband has the headship. This is for the protection of the family as well as its blessing.

In our "church" we essentially have two offices: the elders and the deacons. We don't hold the eldership in high esteem like other Christian denoms hold pastors because we just don't focus on ecclesiastical offices. So the elders are "the responsible ones" and the deacons are "the serving ones." The "responsible ones" are always men. The "servings ones" can be either men or women.

[Smalcald]

Ovedya;

Is that process something that is seen as adhering to scripture, or did it just happen organically? What I mean is the fact that the men are the "responsible ones", based specifically on scripture about the qualifications of an overseer, or did it just basically turn out that way?

[OneLight]

Amen! Pastors and ministers are indeed servants and helpers! That is their high calling.

Prostatis means to help in the sense of the strong lending aid to the weak--not the other way around. Phoebe was "prostatis" just as Caesar was described as "prostatis". He certainly was no weakling helping the strong! No--he lent his assistance as a strong one toward those who required aid.

Phoebe along with many other ministers of the gospel were teachers of truth, offering spiritual food and aid to those in dire need.

diάkonos: A minister, servant, deacon.

1) one who executes the commands of another, esp. of a master, a servant, attendant, minister

a) the servant of a king

b) a deacon, one who, by virtue of the office assigned to him by the church, cares for the poor and has charge of and distributes the money collected for their use

c) a waiter, one who serves food and drink

1 Timothy 3:

Qualifications of Overseers

This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Qualifications of Deacons

Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy for money, holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience. But let these also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons, being found blameless. Likewise, their wives must be reverent, not slanderers, temperate, faithful in all things. Let deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a good standing and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

No matter what we wish His word tells us, God speaks very clearly here. A warning to all, it is unwise to take His word and try to incorporate His words into our personal wishes, building false doctrines according to the desires of our flesh or pride of heart.

1 Corinthians 12:27-28

Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.

It is clearly stated that a women can be neither an overseer or a deacon. This leaves another form of servant. Anything else contradicts Gods word.

In His Love,

OneLight

Overseers and deacons are different offices. Overseers coordinates with the eldership: they are elders (Phil. 1:1; Acts 20:28) 1 Tim. 3:1-2 is talking about "Episkopos" or overseers, not "Diakonos" or deacons, as the shift in vese 8 indicates. Just wanted to make that distinction. Although 1 Tim 3:8 talks about deacons being husbands, the fact that Phoebe was referred to with the feminine form of this word seems to indicate that she was also a deacon (deaconess). Also there is verse 11 which implies a reference to deacons. So, although verse 8 talks of men, verse 11 talks of women in the context of serving (Diakonos).

Overseers are also Pastors. I was addressing the statement that was made about her being a pastor. Verse 11 is addressing the "qualifications" of a deacons wife. I do not see where they hold an office of "deaconess". When you continue to verse 12, the Word goes back to the qualifications of a deacon. No matter how I read it, it still comes out the same. Women are not to be pastors (overseers) or deacons. Is there other scripture to states that they are? Titus 1 speaks the same,and we find in Titus 2 more.

But as for you, speak the things which are proper for sound doctrine: that the older men be sober, reverent, temperate, sound in faith, in love, in patience; the older women likewise, that they be reverent in behavior, not slanderers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things

[Guest shiloh357]

I feel it is only proper and also serves to impede any kind of temptation.

this statement lets me know that the men (i.e.) are weak.

shoulnt have been in that position of authority in the first place.

No it tells us that they are human and are susceptible to all of the temptations of normal men. The problem is not that they are in a position of authority. The problem is that they did not guard themselves well enough while in that position.

You can lose the self-righteous tone anytime.

[Floatingaxe]

Lets look at scripture.

Romans 16:1-2

Sister Phoebe Commended

I commend to you Phoebe our sister, who is a servant of the church in Cenchrea, that you may receive her in the Lord in a manner worthy of the saints, and assist her in whatever business she has need of you; for indeed she has been a helper of many and of myself also.

Concerning Phoebe, it is said "Phoebe our sister, who is a servant of the church in Cenchrea" ... "for indeed she has been a helper of many and of myself also." It clearly states that she was a helper, as in the helps ministry. All who are in Christ is to be treated equally; therefore, she was to be treated in the same manner worthy of the saints.

Nowhere in His word does God contradict Himself. If there is contradiction, then it comes from "our" understanding.

In His Love,

OneLight

Helper is prostatis--not as one who helps as in a helps ministry, but as one in strngth, teaching and stooping to aid those in need...the weak and those in need of knowledge.

It is only those who consider what women did in the first churches as merely helps, who are leaning on their own understanding.

[Floatingaxe]

deacons, helpers, assistants...whatever.

if you want to pick titles and roles then argue against this:

1 Timothy 3:8-13 (King James Version)

King James Version (KJV)

Public Domain

8Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

9Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

10And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.

11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.

This is an understanding that the deacons are male.

Slice it however you want.

1 Timothy 3:8-13 Paraphrased (You need to know God's mind in this)

The same goes for those who want to be servants in the church: serious, not deceitful, not too free with the bottle, not in it for what they can get out of it. They must be reverent before the mystery of the faith, not using their position to try to run things. Let them prove themselves first. If they show they can do it, take them on. No exceptions are to be made for women

[Floatingaxe]

Phoebe was a pastor...

No, she wasn't. Even for the simple fact that there was no such thing as a "pastor" in the first century church!

There is so much religious and sexist bigotry still influencing today's believers that it takes a major move of the Holy Spirit to bring correction regarding service and ministry. The Holy Spirit doesn't "pass over" people with the "wrong plumbing" when passing out spiritual gifts. (That is a "man" thing.) He pays no regard to gender whatsoever! He is looking for willing hearts to serve the King.

As emotion-packed this statement is, FA, you cannot simply use your compassion to write off the Scriptures. Either they are God-breathed and entuirely correct, or they are corrupted with the misogyny of men. Which do you trust more?

According to today's standards of leadership, Phoebe was indeed a pastor, labels of ministry aside.

Scriptures are God-breathed, but as you know, we live in a society which is heavily influenced still by Greco-Roman philosophy--which is misogynistic, to say the very least. Hence, the exasperating of women's service to God by the misinterpretation of Scripture through the ages.

You're thinking backward. The Bible's standard is not beholden to "today's standard of leadership." You know as well as I do that our standard is far below what God expects of us. We don not conform the Bible to our standard, we must be conformed to its standard.

As to Phoebe being a "pastor" you only have Romans 16:1 which says she was a deaconess. In the first century church there were only two offices in the lcoal churches: elder and deacon. Of those two offices only women were permitted to be deacons (or deaconesses). If there were any comparison between the practices of the first century church as God arranged and today, a modern-day pastor would be comparable to a first century elder. There were no women elders in the first century church.

Indeed I am not thinking backward at all!

You are speaking semantics. There was no such thing as a "deaconess" in Paul's day!

Obviously there was, or he would not have used the term "diakonos," which in this context is a feminine noun - the feminine form of the word from which we get "deacon" in Phil. 1:1; 1 Tim. 3:8 and 12. There is no semantics here at all. You are making a presumption where there is none to be made. The text is abundantly clear. Phoebe was not a "pastor" or an elder in the church. She was a "female servant" - a "deaconess" according to the form of speech used.

. The word used for servant in the scriptural passage of Romans 16:1 is "diakonos" in Greek. This word is used everywhere in the NT to designate the office of "minister". This same word is used to denote the office that Phoebe had in Cenchrea, but somehow the bias of the translators entered here and was translated as "servant"(upon encountering a female!). Both translations are correct, but the wrong connotation has been taken. Pastors indeed ARE servants! Elsewhere, wherever a minister was spoken of, if he was male, the word "diakonos" was transcribed as "minister", where "servant" is just as appropriate.

Keep in mind that when the N.T. was written the meaning of diakonos was only minister/servant. Where ever the translators have used

[Willow325]

I Cor. 14

As in all the congregations of the saints, 34women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says. 35If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.

Husband? What about unmarried women?

Anyway, I guess women aren't allowed to speak- at all.

Or maybe speak means speaking in front of the others in church.

Peter was sent to the Jews. Paul was sent to the Gentiles.

As Gentiles, we were grafted into the vine. We didn't have a thorough understanding of the Law as the Jews did. As Paul did.

If you read up on the church history, you'll find that the women spoken about in 1 Corinthians 14, the ones Paul said were to remain silent in the church, the women who wanted to inquire about something should "ask their own husbands at home."

From what I read in church history, the women would call out to their husbands during the sermon Paul was preaching and distract the others, which is why Paul told them to ask their husbands at home. Remember, Gentiles were NOT under the Law. Jewish women were not allowed to do a lot of things under the Law of Moses.

So, speaking out in church, asking questions, is what Paul wanted stopped.

When a man or woman prophesies, they have to speak out loud. Prophesies are spoken in the gathering of Believers which is commonly known as the Church or the Body of Christ.

We're reading a document that was written over thousands of years. The culture in the Bible is so far removed from the culture here in America that you can't compare the two. There are Hebrew idioms in the Bible that people often take as literal. Just as I could say, "You're a pain in the neck." But that doesn't mean, you are stuck in my neck and causing me pain. It's an idiom. Idioms are scattered all throughout the Bible.

Do we take the Bible literally today? If you do, then the next time your son or daughter talks back to you or disrespects you, the men in the city should have a right to stone them because that's what happened to disobedient sons. Under the Laws. How about today? Should a woman be stoned for touching a man?

Please, don't fly off the handle and think, Oh my, she doesn't believe in the Bible, because I do. You have to acquaint yourself with the culture of the people at the time of the Bible and with church history to understand parts of the New Testament. And unless you have a good understanding of Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek, there will always be disagreements concerning the Bible. And I'm not a Bible scholar. I just like to read up on things.

Look at the topic of slavery. America was the last country to get involved in the slave trade, but it was the first country to stop it within its borders. The Bible talks about slavery. Does that mean because it's in the Bible, that we, today, can have slaves? Of course not. Not everything in the Bible was meant to be taken literally. Especially, idioms.

We, Gentiles, were never under the Law and never will be.

And if we're supposed to start keeping the Law, then Jesus died for nothing.

Willow325

[Floatingaxe]

Amen, Willow.

[Guest shiloh357]

All pastors are servants, but not all servants are pastors. Deacons were set aside for service and are separate from pastors which the NT refers to in the KJV as bishops. Technically all qualifiy as diakonos, or servants in one respect, but the official role of deacon is separate from the role of Pastor and always has been from NT times.