If God is omnipotent and all knowing?

[Rick-Parker]

What "truthbringer" brings to this thread is a lie. He will not, or is not able to, provide scripture to back up his "truth". He's words are discredited by his actions. I pray for him.

[truthbringer]

This thread, IMO, should be closed if truthbringer won't provide scripture to back his argument. Need not debate, just my opin.

true, that. Nobody should be allowed to teach heresy on this board.

[1]If you read the Bible through the Holy Spirit instead of 1st imaginations, you might see the scriptures.

But you never will because you dont have a teachable spirit.

Until you find these verses and are able to put forth an arguement you have no case to say Im teaching herecy

You are asking people to find something that does not exist.

how can we find you something that does not exist?

if they exist, show us where, because outside of you, no one thinks they do.

so, until you provide the scripture, we have no choice but to call what you are teaching heresy

Runningator, As I said, the scripturs are there, WHY WOULD I SAY THEY ARE THERE, IF THEY ARE NOT.

You haven't read the Bible that quick, Read it again, this time read it in the Holy Ghost.

Edited September 25, 2008 by truthbringer

[HAZARD]

There is nothing God cannot know that He wants to know. The thing is, Lucifer, Adam, and man in general were created with free will. That means, when God gives one free will to choose, and He test's this free will, He tests the free will to see what the result will be. If He already knows what the result will be why the test? An all knowing God would be wasting His time testing a free will agent if He already knew the answer. No one says, I already know all the answeres, but I will test you anyway just for the fun of it, knowing who will pass and who will fail? I have nothing better to do with my time and yours.

Knowing beforehand that Adam would sin, and creating him anyway, causing the Word to become flesh and having to die an horrific death to save mankind, and creating man anyway enables God's adversary and sinners alike to call God the author of sin and death. Its that serious.

For example, when He tested Abraham and Abraham passed the test God said;

"And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me" (Gen 22:12).

When did God know? . . . . . . . When Abraham was about to raise the knife and kill his son! "FOR NOW I KNOW" not before, not before the creation of the world, but "NOW I KNOW" at the time the event occured, thats when God knew Abraham would not withhold anything from Him, not before. Who would deliberately create a sinner, a murderer, a failure, a pedofile, would God? I doubt it. God created, God tested, and God put in place an avenue for redemption and repentance. Much more can and will be revealed in this thread if commons sence prevailes.

Haz.

[Rick-Parker]

There is nothing God cannot know that He wants to know. The thing is, Lucifer, Adam, and man in general were created with free will. That means, when God gives one free will to choose, and He test's this free will, He tests the free will to see what the result will be. If He already knows what the result will be why the test? An all knowing God would be wasting His time testing a free will agent if He already knew the answer. No one says, I already know all the answeres, but I will test you anyway just for the fun of it, knowing who will pass and who will fail? I have nothing better to do with my time and yours.

Knowing beforehand that Adam would sin, and creating him anyway, causing the Word to become flesh and having to die an horrific death to save mankind, and creating man anyway enables God's adversary and sinners alike to call God the author of sin and death. Its that serious.

For example, when He tested Abraham and Abraham passed the test God said;

"And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me" (Gen 22:12).

When did God know? . . . . . . . When Abraham was about to raise the knife and kill his son! "FOR NOW I KNOW" not before, not before the creation of the world, but "NOW I KNOW" at the time the event occured, thats when God knew Abraham would not withhold anything from Him, not before. Who would deliberately create a sinner, a murderer, a failure, a pedofile, would God? I doubt it. God created, God tested, and God put in place an avenue for redemption and repentance. Much more can and will be revealed in this thread if commons sence prevailes.

Haz.

God is outside of time. He sees everything that has happened before time began and through eternity which never ends. Hold your hands 2 feet apart in front of you. Look between you hands. That is how God sees. Everything is between your (God's) hands. We have free will to chose, yet God sees how we will choose. That is why God knows who will chose him and who will not; who will act in righteousness and who will not. That is what the Bible teaches. Not the snake oil/garbage you and truthbringer are selling.

[Rick-Parker]

God knows everything. Here is the Truth (proof), truthbringer. Where is your truth (proof) that he does not, whether choice or

limitation? All scripture is from the World English Bible (WEB)

Psalm 139:1-4: "Yahweh, you have searched me, and you know me. You know my sitting down and my rising up. You perceive my thoughts from afar. You search out my path and my lying down, and are acquainted with all my ways. For there is not a word on my tongue, But, behold, Yahweh, you know it altogether."

Proverbs 15:3: "Yahweh's eyes are everywhere, keeping watch on the evil and the good."

Job 21:22: '"Shall any teach God knowledge, seeing he judges those who are high?"'

[EricH]

God is greater than our hearts and knows all things.

1 John 3:20

What is not included in "all"

[LadyRaven]

God is greater than our hearts and knows all things.

1 John 3:20

What is not included in "all"

All is all, anything else is not orthodox doctrine.

[TruthFirst]

There is nothing God cannot know that He wants to know. The thing is, Lucifer, Adam, and man in general were created with free will. That means, when God gives one free will to choose, and He test's this free will, He tests the free will to see what the result will be. If He already knows what the result will be why the test? An all knowing God would be wasting His time testing a free will agent if He already knew the answer. No one says, I already know all the answeres, but I will test you anyway just for the fun of it, knowing who will pass and who will fail? I have nothing better to do with my time and yours.

Knowing beforehand that Adam would sin, and creating him anyway, causing the Word to become flesh and having to die an horrific death to save mankind, and creating man anyway enables God's adversary and sinners alike to call God the author of sin and death. Its that serious.

For example, when He tested Abraham and Abraham passed the test God said;

"And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me" (Gen 22:12).

When did God know? . . . . . . . When Abraham was about to raise the knife and kill his son! "FOR NOW I KNOW" not before, not before the creation of the world, but "NOW I KNOW" at the time the event occured, thats when God knew Abraham would not withhold anything from Him, not before. Who would deliberately create a sinner, a murderer, a failure, a pedofile, would God? I doubt it. God created, God tested, and God put in place an avenue for redemption and repentance. Much more can and will be revealed in this thread if commons sence prevailes.

Haz.

Wonderful Post Haz.

This question of free will has always been a nagging one for me until I sat down with someone who was able to walk me through many scriptures to enlighten my thoughts.

I think that before we can even begin to answer the question of Omniscience we have to attempt to understand God's knowledge outside of everything that has been created. (Angels, humans, Space, matter). What was God's Omniscience prior to that? The big questions are Does God have creative thought? In other words can He decide at any point to create, produce, invent something that He never had thought of previously?

If we say yes, then God did not know He was going to do that. If we say no, then God even knows all His own actions before He performs them and therefore is no more in control but only going through the motions of what He already knows He will do. That's not creativity, and creativity is one of the things that makes us in His image.

I believe God knows everything that is knowable. If He doesn't create it it can not be known, unless it is in His mind to create something, He just hasn't yet followed through on it.

We believe in God's omnipresence, yet we know He is not in the rock or the chair. We are not Pantheistic. So it would seem we give some leeway in our thinking when it comes to His omnipresence.

God is omnipotent yet He can not create a rock so big that He can not lift it. God is infinite and that rock would have to obliterate Him. It would be suicide. There's leeway when it comes to His Omnipotence.

Free will involves choice and choice involves a moment of decision. Until that moment comes their is no choice and therefore no outcome to be known, no object, no nothing. Does that limit God's knowledge, not knowing what can not be known. Not at all.

How can the Holy Spirit be grieved when He already knew that we would commit a certain sin. Grief and crocodile tears are two different things. Matter of fact when you know for a long time that something is going to happen, you're not grieved, you're not even surprised.

In Genesis 6 God says He repented of creating man. REPENTED. Now think of it, if you always knew that man's sin was going to be that bad then you would not create him in the first place thus nullifying the need to repent.

And please don't say that God went through the whole process so that Jesus could come and die on the cross to show His great glory. That does not give answer to the word repent, it is neither the reason why Jesus came (Not to show God's glory but for redemption purposes) and it also goes against what Paul teaches: "Shall we sin so that grace may abound" NO.

Did Jesus know the hour of the end times, NO, this was reserved unto the Father. (What are you saying only the Father knew?) Yes in the council of the Godhead it was decided that only the Father would know. Was Jesus sore about that, did He kick up a stink? NO He and the H-S both love the Father implicitly and trust Him unreservedly, they have no problem in leaving that decision in His hands.

Jeremiah (32:35) God knew that Israel were sinful, idolatrous, stiff-necked but to actually take your own sons and daughters and throw them into the fires of Molech.

"Neither did the thought enter my mind that you would commit such a sin."

"and they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin." KJV

All I can say is I believe in free will, true free will. And not afraid of going that extra step and say that God doesn't know what will be my choice until it actually happens. Like Abraham, "Now I Know". You know what it means. It that God is not a cruel God who goes through the motion of creating billions of people knowing full well that He might as well send them to hell now. Or why not put them in hell right away and others in heaven and forget about going through the whole scenario. It voids the work of the cross.

My father is dying of cancer (he's not saved), do you think my prayers will have any effect on His salvation if he is destined to hell?

Matter of fact if God has it all mapped out, I'll be giving up prayer. I have better things to do with my time.

One last thing because it's getting late, a word in love to Runningater. That is a high horse you're sitting on and believe me the Lord made my horse buck on this subject matter. I had to eat crow but now I'm more cautious and He has shown me what I wrote above and more.

Bless you all as you take these words and either stew, melt, burn or maybe begin to rethink things without certain blinders.

[Hawkins]

Faith

Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Proverbs 3:5

Trust God

I agree 100%

[Hawkins]

I am a believer, but am new so I have a question.

If God knows past, present, and future then He knew when He created Adam and Eve that they would sin? But reading Genesis, it doesn't seem so.

If He knew they would sin, and then why did He create them and then allow them to procreate?

Also, if God is omnipotent, then He knows who is going to choose to accept Jesus into their hearts and who will reject Him, how is this a choice and why does He continue to allow life to continue?

Sometimes, to me, it makes no sense that we have this choice to make, but in the end it doesn't matter since He already knows our decision.

I mean, how can He desire and long for us to come to Him, when He already knows who will and who wont.

Help?

I think it's abit like I said that tommorrow will rain, then it rains the next day. So it depends on if I would like to counter act on my foreknowledge or not. If I choose not to intervene it will just rain as it is. If on the other hand I choose to intervene then the result will change. I can thus have a bigger and longer view to see back from the end of time what are resulted by the 99% without intervention and 1% intervention. This says, 1) we can't reason from God's point of view, we don't have the matched intelligence to understand the arrangement fully.

He desires us to come to Him with faith, instead of by His intervention, for a purpose we might or might not know. It's all about His Ultimate Plan.

I don't think we can understand or let know what the plan is, but from my guess, those come to Him with Faith will never leave away from Him again in eternity. Just my guess. (I mean, I am quite sure that this is part of the reasons of part of His plan. )

Edited September 26, 2008 by Hawkins