MorningGlory Posted July 30, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1,022 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 39,193 Content Per Day: 6.06 Reputation: 9,977 Days Won: 78 Joined: 10/01/2006 Status: Offline Share Posted July 30, 2008 So if our government were to tell us we should go to London and kill every living thing in the city, you would assume that God must want that to happen, and go for it? Amazing logic you conservatives use, Abortion: not sanctioned by God, Death penalty: sanctioned. Our Government has legalized abortion so why don't you consider it Gods will? The above statement has no bearing on the issue at hand....it shows no correlation to anything and it makes NO sense. The issue is execution of a soldier convicted of heinous crimes...not abortion, not killing everyone in London and not conservatives. But making a point about the OP is. Regardless of the fact that I was responding to statements directed at me. Of course you would never do such a thing. No, I wouldn't. I might blast someone, sure....but I would never go off on a completely unrelated tangent. You seem to make all this arguing you engage in a personal thing.....it's not worth all that. Liberal and Conservative are bandied about, by many who post here, ad nauseum.....it's a hackneyed and pointless way to debate things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckthesystem Posted July 30, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 1,706 Topics Per Day: 0.26 Content Count: 3,386 Content Per Day: 0.51 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/12/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/10/1955 Share Posted July 30, 2008 So much for the "culture of life". Only God should determine who should or shouldn't die because only God knows the heart of a person and only God can judge someone's fate. Who are we, mere humans, imperfect in every way, to judge who should live or die? Actually that is not a Biblical perspective. God did give governments the right to exact the death penalty without His direct intervention in each case. So much for the "culture of life". Only God should determine who should or shouldn't die because only God knows the heart of a person and only God can judge someone's fate. Who are we, mere humans, imperfect in every way, to judge who should live or die? Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil. Romans 13:1-4 New American Standard Bible So if our government were to tell us we should go to London and kill every living thing in the city, you would assume that God must want that to happen, and go for it? Amazing logic you conservatives use, Abortion: not sanctioned by God, Death penalty: sanctioned. Our Government has legalized abortion so why don't you consider it Gods will? Now I've heard everything!! I thought of not saying this, but debating Christian subjects is what these boards are all about, as well as, of course, glorifying our Lord, so: The Bible says clearly "Thou shalt not kill", "kill" - not "murder" or "premeditatedly (if there is such a word) put to death", but "kill". It also does MOST DECIDEDLY NOT say "thou shalt not kill, unless, of course, you are a government employee carrying out orders". However, what I mean by "I've heard everything" (and I knew that it was only a matter of time before someone said something like this) was that you have twisted scripture to make it sound like "what the government, or government employees, do, is on God's behalf". That idea is just, well ........... SICK!!!! Was the FBI "acting for God" when it phychologically tortured people at Waco, Texas, in 1993, burned down their compound, and then destroyed all the evidence with military tanks? Was the FBI acting on behalf of God at Ruby Ridge, in 1992? Gee, there are so many examples, I could go on all night ......... Suffice to say: I am now wondering why the judge in the Nuremberg trials of 1946 ruled against the defence of "I was just following orders" when these people were obviously acting on God's behalf. Well, if you are going to say that Rom. 13, says "authority has been handed from God to government", then I guess that goes for the Nazi government as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xan Posted July 30, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,060 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 18 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/02/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/23/1970 Share Posted July 30, 2008 The Bible says clearly "Thou shalt not kill", "kill" - not "murder" or "premeditatedly (if there is such a word) put to death", but "kill". It also does MOST DECIDEDLY NOT say "thou shalt not kill, unless, of course, you are a government employee carrying out orders". Actually, the original text used the word that is translated as 'murder'. Also, wasn't the same commandment you referenced in the same book of the Bible where God commanded His people to murder the wicked? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xan Posted July 30, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,060 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 18 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/02/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/23/1970 Share Posted July 30, 2008 you got that right BTS! You'll notice BTS, that no one wanted to touch the "Our Government has legalized abortion so why don't you consider it Gods will?" portion of my question. Okay; I'll bite. Abortion is not exacting judgement. The death penalty is. Governments often stray far from the model of a just government God had layed out in Deutoronomy. In the model God layed out, the death penalty was commanded, abortion was not. Seems to me your issue is with God; not man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthitjah Posted July 30, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.26 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted July 30, 2008 you got that right BTS! You'll notice BTS, that no one wanted to touch the "Our Government has legalized abortion so why don't you consider it Gods will?" portion of my question. Okay; I'll bite. Abortion is not exacting judgement. The death penalty is. Governments often stray far from the model of a just government God had layed out in Deutoronomy. In the model God layed out, the death penalty was commanded, abortion was not. Seems to me your issue is with God; not man. Exactly Xan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buckthesystem Posted July 30, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 3 Topic Count: 1,706 Topics Per Day: 0.26 Content Count: 3,386 Content Per Day: 0.51 Reputation: 3 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/12/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/10/1955 Share Posted July 30, 2008 I'm sorry but DUO's analogy about abortion is, I reckon anyway, ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!!!! It seems that a lot of you are interpreting scripture to be how you want it to be, God will be the judge of that. He's the only one who can be the judge. We are all mere mortals, fallen mortals, and not one of us is good enough to judge another where life or death is concerned. We can never be 100% sure whose opinion about any of this is right, we'll just have to wait until God tells us. Meanwhile I'll stick to my view. I get the impression that some of you have swallowed your government's "last resort" attempt to justify evil. Don't you realise that repressive governments throughout the centuries have tried to persuade the people that Rom. 13 says that it is Godly to support the government. Nothing new here. I remember reading that decades ago, I just didn't think I'd come across it in my lifetime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xan Posted July 30, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,060 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 18 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/02/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/23/1970 Share Posted July 30, 2008 I'm sorry but DUO's analogy about abortion is, I reckon anyway, ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!!!! It seems that a lot of you are interpreting scripture to be how you want it to be, God will be the judge of that. He's the only one who can be the judge. We are all mere mortals, fallen mortals, and not one of us is good enough to judge another where life or death is concerned. We can never be 100% sure whose opinion about any of this is right, we'll just have to wait until God tells us. Meanwhile I'll stick to my view. God did tell us. I pointed that out to you, and you have not addressed it. BTW, it is not my view but God's that I will stick with. DUO's analogy is right? So, unborn babies are the same as unlawful murderers or do you believe unlawful murderers are the same as unborn babies? What does God say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustinM Posted July 30, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 144 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,512 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 625 Days Won: 10 Joined: 04/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/07/1979 Share Posted July 30, 2008 Our government isn't using Romans 13 to justify its laws. Our Constitution spells out just what responsibilities our government is supposed to be limited to. Execution is legally and morally justifiable for a first degree murder conviction. One person isn't chosing who lives and dies, it a jury of the defendents peers, which is also within our constitution. Funny, how people want to outlaw execution that is clearly spelled out in the Constitution, but have no problem misinterpreting the same Constitution to defend abortion. Oh, the bitter irony! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustinM Posted July 30, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 144 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 4,512 Content Per Day: 0.68 Reputation: 625 Days Won: 10 Joined: 04/11/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/07/1979 Share Posted July 30, 2008 If you want to turn the lawfulness of execution into a moral discussion, then abortion will be brought up. But, if you want to discuss the legality of it all, then that is a completely different conversation. The US Supreme Court legalized abortion, of which it greatly abused its power and violated the Constitution in that ruling. The Constitution legalized execution, yet here we are, having a discussion about how wrong it is. I believe abortion is wrong, but I don't need to come up with a lame excuse to justify my beliefs. I believe execution is justifiable by our laws, so I need no other excuse to legitimize my beliefs. You people are so intellectually dishonest and morally ambiguous, you only have your ideology to justify your beliefs and mine come from the Bible, a moral compass and spiritual guide. Until you are ready to admit that you have no foundation to base your beliefs on, then I really have nothing further to say regarding abortion and execution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xan Posted July 31, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 32 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 1,060 Content Per Day: 0.18 Reputation: 18 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/02/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/23/1970 Share Posted July 31, 2008 you got that right BTS! You'll notice BTS, that no one wanted to touch the "Our Government has legalized abortion so why don't you consider it Gods will?" portion of my question. Okay; I'll bite. Abortion is not exacting judgement. The death penalty is. Governments often stray far from the model of a just government God had layed out in Deutoronomy. In the model God layed out, the death penalty was commanded, abortion was not. Seems to me your issue is with God; not man. I don't remember anything in Deuteronomy about "abortion", so we are left, with our flaws, to interpret. I never said anything about abortion in Deutoronomy; I was talking about God commanding the death penalty when He set up the model for government. I answered your question, but maybe I didn't answer it clearly, so I will try again. You and BTS are trying to draw an analogy between abortion and the death penalty, and I am assuming the question you asked resulted because of that analogy and the assertion by the rest of us that the death penalty is in God's will. When God set out the model government, one important thing He did was provide ways for the government to inact justice, which included the death penalty. Abortion is not about inacting justice. Condemning a murderer to death is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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