Fox News - FBI used aggressive tactics in anthrax

[mathqueen]

I have a feeling this is all we're going to hear about it though. I guess we'll see!

[Guest]

Did you just call me a nutjob?

In The San Juquain Valley That Is A Complament

[buckthesystem]

My husband is absolutely convinced that this guy is a scapegoat. I don't know what to think, but this sure does stink...

His psychiatrist has sworn under oath that 1. he was a homicidal sociopath, 2. she was terrified of him, 3. he has attempted to kill people who wronged him in the past and 4. he told her he was going to kill his coworkers in the lab. She also took out a restraining order against him several weeks ago. So, unless his doctor is a liar with an axe to grind, he probably did send the anthrax....since he had access to it and wanted credit for developing the antidote.

His psychiatrist has sworn under oath that 1. he was a homicidal sociopath, 2. she was terrified of him, 3. he has attempted to kill people who wronged him in the past and 4. he told her he was going to kill his coworkers in the lab. She also took out a restraining order against him several weeks ago. So, unless his doctor is a liar with an axe to grind, he probably did send the anthrax....since he had access to it and wanted credit for developing the antidote.

And how much money did they give HER to swear under oath to that? I'm not saying he's innocent. I'm just saying, something seems off.

The woman who said that was NOT "HIS" PSYCHIATRIST, SHE WAS NOT "A" PSYCHIATRICT, she was a "therapist", a "social worker" and it seems that none of his colleagues or family had any knowledge of Ivins seeing her until after he "was suicided". People have just assumed that what she said was real, and that he'd been having therapy for depression.

Maybe he did have to see a therapist, I mean after the FBI did all it could to drive him crazy, it's little wonder that he suffered from depression.

This woman's court document was handwritten and badly spelled, with bad grammar, hardly something a skilled therapist would do.

This article from the Irish Times explains a bit:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/...7628485411.html

Monday 4 August 2008

UNITED STATES: Army scientist's suicide leaves many questions, report Joby Warrick, Marilyn Thompson and Aaron Davis

FOR NEARLY seven years, scientist Bruce Ivins and a small circle of fellow anthrax specialists at Fort Detrick's Army medical lab in Maryland lived in a curious limbo: they served as consultants for the FBI in the investigation of the deadly 2001 anthrax attacks, yet they were all potential suspects.

Over lunch in the bacteriology division, nervous scientists would share stories about their latest unpleasant encounters with the FBI and ponder whether they should hire lawyers, according to one of Ivins' former supervisors.

In tactics that the researchers considered heavy-handed and often threatening, they were interviewed and polygraphed as early as 2002, and reinterviewed numerous times. Their labs were searched and their computers and equipment carted away.

The FBI eventually focused on Ivins, whom federal prosecutors were planning to indict when he committed suicide last week. Officials asserted that Ivins had the skills and access to equipment needed to turn anthrax bacteria into an ultra-fine powder that could be used as a lethal weapon.

Court documents and tapes also reveal a therapist's deep concern that Ivins (62) was homicidal and obsessed with revenge during his final months when, friends say, he fell into depression under the strain of constant FBI scrutiny. A social worker, Jean Duley, passed on her concerns to the FBI after receiving death threats from Ivins.

Duley became so worried that she petitioned a local judge for a protective order against Ivins. According to an audio recording of the hearing, she said she had seen Ivins as a therapist for six months, and thought he had tried to kill people in the past.

"As far back as the year 2000, [ivins] has actually attempted to murder several other people, [including] through poisoning," she said. "He is a revenge killer, when he feels that he's been slighted ... especially towards women. He plots and actually tries to carry out revenge killings," she told a judge.

She described a July 9th group therapy session in which Ivins allegedly talked of mass murder.

"He was extremely agitated, out of control," she said. Ivins told the group he had bought a gun, and proceeded to lay out a "long and detailed homicidal plan", she said.

"Because he was about to be indicted on capital murder charges, he was going to go out in a blaze of glory; that he was going to take everybody out with him," she said.

Yet, colleagues and friends remained convinced that Ivins was innocent. They contended that he had neither the motive nor the means to create the lethal powder that was sent by mail to news outlets and congressional offices in the summer and autumn of 2001.

Mindful of FBI mistakes in fingering others in the case, many are very sceptical that the bureau has gotten it right this time.

"I really don't think he's the guy. I say to the FBI: 'Show me your evidence,'" said Jeffrey Adamovicz, former director of the bacteriology division at US Army Medical Research Institute for Infectious Diseases, or USAMRIID.

"A lot of the tactics they used were designed to isolate him from his support. The FBI just continued to push his buttons."

Investigators are so confident of Ivins' involvement that they have been debating since Friday whether to close the seven-year-old anthrax investigation. A government source said that the probe could be shut down as early as today. No charges are likely against others, that source added.

Once the case is closed, the FBI and justice department will face questions - and possibly public hearings - from congressional oversight committees, which have been largely shut out of the case for the past five years.

One bioweapons expert familiar with the FBI investigation said that Ivins indeed possessed the skills needed to create the dust-fine powder used in the attacks. At the Army lab where he worked, Ivins specialised in making sophisticated preparations of anthrax bacteria spores for use in animal tests, said the expert, who requested anonymity because the investigation remains active.

Ivins' daily routine included the use of processes and equipment the anthrax terrorist likely used in making his weapons. He also is known to have had ready access to the specific strain of Bacillus anthracis used in the attack - a strain found to match samples found in Ivins' lab, he said.

But others, including former colleagues and scientists with backgrounds in biological weapons defence, disagreed that Ivins could have created the anthrax powder even if motivated to do so.

"USAMRIID doesn't deal with powdered anthrax," said Richard Spertzel, who worked with Ivins at the Army lab. "I don't think there's anyone there who would have the foggiest idea how to do it. You would need to have the opportunity, the capability and the motivation, and he didn't possess any of those."

Authorities cast doubt on Saturday on reports that Ivins had acted for financial gain based on patents and scientific advances he had made. They say the government restricts income from inventions produced in its laboratories to no more than $150,000 per year, but the amount is often considerably less.

Jaye Holly, who lived next door to the Ivinses until a month ago, said she couldn't believe that her former neighbour, who was obsessed with grass recycling and drove a 20-year-old van, would endanger others for financial gain.

"I can't imagine him being involved in a scheme to make money or to make a profit, especially one that would put people at risk or even die," Holly said. "That's not the Bruce we knew. He was sweet, friendly, I mean he was into glass recycling.

Tuesday 5 August 1008

The "therapist" sounds like a bitter and twisted woman with an agenda to me. I hope that is not seen as too harsh, but that is the impression I get.

[buckthesystem]

My husband is absolutely convinced that this guy is a scapegoat. I don't know what to think, but this sure does stink...

I hate to say it but I think he's got it pretty right. The thing that made me "smell a major rat" about this is that

THERE WAS NO AUTOPSY

And according to what I have read the American government is almost obsessive about autopsies, autopsies are required - in most states - even if it is pretty obvious why someone died but they died alone and hadn't seen a medical practitioner in some time.

It is my belief that after the FBI failed in it's attempt to set up Dr Steven Hatfill and had to pay out money, they "went for" the "next person on the list", and not wanting to have to pay out money again and be made to look silly by the media, they killed their next victim. (That's just my personal belief, and I am not stating it as fact).

The other thing that "stank badly" for me was, I wondered why this bloke allegedly killed himself using tylenol and codeine, which is a horrible, slow, painful death, and it takes at least 48 hours between taking the overdose and death occurring. As a scientist Dr Ivins would have realised this and would have had access to a whole labaratory of other drugs that would do a quicker, cleaner job.

What is the bet that there will be (if there hasn't been already) a hasty cremation?

(hmmn, having a "tin foil hat moment")

[Rick-Parker]

Conspiracy theory. Not allowed.

[mathqueen]

Conspiracy theory. Not allowed.

[mathqueen]

Did you just call me a nutjob?

In The San Juquain Valley That Is A Complament

Don't make me head down highway 99 and talk some sense into you.

[Axxman]

Typical...

The gov't is lying...

The therapist is lying...

The FBI is lying...

Oh...but the guy who had SOLE CUSTODY of the strain of anthrax used to murder people. The guy who has threatened to kill people and stalked people...he's the one who is telling the truth

[MorningGlory]

I hate to say it but I think he's got it pretty right. The thing that made me "smell a major rat" about this is that

THERE WAS NO AUTOPSY

And according to what I have read the American government is almost obsessive about autopsies, autopsies are required - in most states - even if it is pretty obvious why someone died but they died alone and hadn't seen a medical practitioner in some time.

It is my belief that after the FBI failed in it's attempt to set up Dr Steven Hatfill and had to pay out money, they "went for" the "next person on the list", and not wanting to have to pay out money again and be made to look silly by the media, they killed their next victim. (That's just my personal belief, and I am not stating it as fact).

The other thing that "stank badly" for me was, I wondered why this bloke allegedly killed himself using tylenol and codeine, which is a horrible, slow, painful death, and it takes at least 48 hours between taking the overdose and death occurring. As a scientist Dr Ivins would have realised this and would have had access to a whole labaratory of other drugs that would do a quicker, cleaner job.

What is the bet that there will be (if there hasn't been already) a hasty cremation?

(hmmn, having a "tin foil hat moment")

Hmmm....you sure are having a 'tin foil hat' moment, bts, if you believe any of that. If there was no autopsy....how do they know what killed the man? Since when did the FBI ever care about being made to look silly? They've done that to themselves many times before. What would be their motive in killing Dr. Ivens? They were going to charge him with a death penalty offense anyway! And you're right, it was a therapist (not a psychiatrist) that testified about him but she DID ask for a restraining order because he threatened her and his therapy group. He was evaluated by a psychiatrist however at some point in the last few months. That's public record. You just have to think about it rationally; the FBI didn't have to come up with a perpetrator. Why would they?

[buckthesystem]

Hmmm....you sure are having a 'tin foil hat' moment, bts, if you believe any of that. If there was no autopsy....how do they know what killed the man? Since when did the FBI ever care about being made to look silly? They've done that to themselves many times before. What would be their motive in killing Dr. Ivens? They were going to charge him with a death penalty offense anyway! And you're right, it was a therapist (not a psychiatrist) that testified about him but she DID ask for a restraining order because he threatened her and his therapy group. He was evaluated by a psychiatrist however at some point in the last few months. That's public record. You just have to think about it rationally; the FBI didn't have to come up with a perpetrator. Why would they?

You are over-reacting. I am not proffering any "conspiracy theories", I'm merely QUESTIONING the official story. People who accept preposterous things that they're told remind me of a child sitting in the corner with his hands over his ears chanting to himself "I'm a good citizen of the new world, I will never ask questions". The thing about this particular episode is that there are so many obvious holes in the way of belief of what the public is being told happened and it is far harder to accept things as being what the way the FBI claimed, than to see what is wrong with it.

Doesn't it make you wonder why there was no autopsy in this case? Apparently there was not even an examination of the body to ascertain whether or not there were bruises, sign of force etc.

It is not necessary to hold an autopsy to claim that someone ingested drugs. All you have to do, and all that was done in this case, was to take a blood sample from the corpse and analyse it for the presence of tylenol.

Now if you are going to hang all your evidence on the court document that was written by a woman of questionable knowledge, consider how much weight you can really put on a court document where she described herself as a "theripist". Have a look at this:

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years...81anthrax2.html

Now as for "the FBI don't have to come up with a perpetrator" Well, yes they do if they want to close the case and stem any future public scrutiny.