women to keep silent

[Floatingaxe]

Wow I must really be out of the loop. I did not realize this antiquidated debate was still taken seriously today. Please no offense intended for those who practice it. I was taught that Paul was stating the laws of the day about women in the churches. I also thought he was responding to certain issues of contention, gossip, and confusion arising in his church, which he pinpointed to the murmurrings coming from some of the women. But from the stand point of this day and age, I have learned some of the greatest lessons taught from women pastors than from men. And I don't say ALL women teachers are good, just as not All male teachers are good. But if someone refuses to listen to a life changing word because it maybe coming from a women you surely could be missing out on a blessing.

Amen, sister!

[book_wirm]

I'm curious Book Wirm: how is hair length, head covering, and silence of women in church "for our benefit"-- as you've said?

Not necessarily disagreeing.... Just asking.

Certainly, Isaiah43:4. Aside from being simple obedience to what my wife and I see as the clear instruction of God's Word, we also believe it is beneficial to:

1] women

- it is a very "present" reminder to her of her need to be under subjection to her husband. I can't tell you the number

of times my wife has conducted herself in Christ-like sumbission to me and later told me the only reason was because

she sees herself as a "head-covering woman" [as she puts it] and she would have felt like a hypocrite if she had done

otherwise only to put her cover on on Sunday morning.

- there is a quote, attributed to Publius [the Bishop of Malta], though I do not know for a fact he is the original author. I

recite it, rather, to continue my point. He says, "The obedience of a wife is a kind of command."

Here I can attest to a definite affect on my own willingness to see my wife's desires fulfilled before mine when I

routinely see her humble herself in Christ-like submission to me. How could I do any otherwise and still say I am

loving her as Christ would have me to?

2] men

- as it is a "present" reminder to women of their need to be under subjection to their husbands, it is an equally strong

reminder to husbands that they ought to ensure they too are fully submitting to their head, Christ. I suppose you could

say that in this manner, the woman acts as a model for the man. If they ought to submit to such a point, to what point

ought husbands to submit to their head?

- I also cannot tell you how joyful/pleasent/fulfilling a thing leading my family is when I have a family to lead that is very

clear in their intention to follow me. I have no reservations about approaching my wife as her head when I am so often

shown through her outward symbol of covering that I can expect to be received with respect and love. It frees me to a

great extant, as I said above, to be able to think more about the needs and desires of my wife than my own because I

am so rarely challenged in my position as head.

3] Children

- as my daughters reach an age at which they can understand the practice and begin to cover as well [2 of my 3

daughters have reached that age] they become immersed in a culture of Christ-like submission to their head, be it

father or, ultimately, their husband. I suppose you could say, then, that this is a service I am doing for my future

son-in-laws as well.

- but my sons are not left out of this. As they see their sisters and mother openly submit to me, they too are given a

clear model for their own submission to their head [myself and, ultimately, Christ]. In this respect, even my sons'

younger sisters are given the privilage of acting as role models for their older brothers.

4] daughters specifically

- if you are a young man interested in one of my daughters, what might their head covering reveal to you?

a] do you think young men will view them as the kind of young lady that will be an "easy" target?

b] what sort of father will those young suiters take me to be, even before meeting me? Hopefully the kind who sees

his daughters as HIS precious jewels that he will not allow to be abused and/or mistreated.

5] the church

- I can personally attest to the increased order brought to the church by women who cover and maintain silence. And, in

case I haven't said it enough, this is yet another example of a woman being a role model even for men.

Now, none of this should be taken as the reasons "why" we believe and practice as we do. That is entirely because we believe it is a clear command of scripture. These are simply some of the many benefits of practicing head covering and female silence that I could think of in the few minutes it took me to type this out.

Eric

[Floatingaxe]

I am just so very glad that in Christ I am free from religion.

[Guest shiloh357]

The Jewish perspective comes from the religious teachings of the Talmud, not the Torah. It is not God's Word.

That is not entirely accurate. The Jewish "perspective" is different depending on who you talk to. You cannot simply roll the Jewish people into one and act as if they are monolith. Not all Jews, particularly Messianic Jews would agree with your assessment.

[Guest shiloh357]

The Jewish perspective comes from the religious teachings of the Talmud, not the Torah. It is not God's Word.

Obviously the leadership of most churches today are missing something in the way of comprehension of the Word when they ignore the small fact you bring up about Philip's daughters being prophets. They were not precluded from exercising their spiritual calling. Something is wrong with today's understanding and forced obeisance to the male-dominated interpretation of Paul.

Paul was a jewish Rabbi. could his rabbinical influence be the source of this command?

Actually alot of people have it backwards. They feel that the "Jewish" perspective stems from the Talmud, but tend to forget that the Torah preceded the written Talmud. Thus, the Talmud is the product of "Torah" thought. The Talmud has undergone some changes over the years, but it is the Talmud that actually teaches Jewish people to honor women, not denigrate them. Jesus even quoted from the Talmud and/or eluded to it in several places. The Talmud is not the bogeyman that some uninformed Christians make it out to be.

[Floatingaxe]

The Jewish perspective comes from the religious teachings of the Talmud, not the Torah. It is not God's Word.

Obviously the leadership of most churches today are missing something in the way of comprehension of the Word when they ignore the small fact you bring up about Philip's daughters being prophets. They were not precluded from exercising their spiritual calling. Something is wrong with today's understanding and forced obeisance to the male-dominated interpretation of Paul.

Paul was a jewish Rabbi. could his rabbinical influence be the source of this command?

Actually alot of people have it backwards. They feel that the "Jewish" perspective stems from the Talmud, but tend to forget that the Torah preceded the written Talmud. Thus, the Talmud is the product of "Torah" thought. The Talmud has undergone some changes over the years, but it is the Talmud that actually teaches Jewish people to honor women, not denigrate them. Jesus even quoted from the Talmud and/or eluded to it in several places. The Talmud is not the bogeyman that some uninformed Christians make it out to be.

It is a religious book that spawned phariseeism. It is not Scripture. It perpetuates many sinful ideas regarding the status or non-status of women.

[Guest shiloh357]

The Jewish perspective comes from the religious teachings of the Talmud, not the Torah. It is not God's Word.

Obviously the leadership of most churches today are missing something in the way of comprehension of the Word when they ignore the small fact you bring up about Philip's daughters being prophets. They were not precluded from exercising their spiritual calling. Something is wrong with today's understanding and forced obeisance to the male-dominated interpretation of Paul.

Paul was a jewish Rabbi. could his rabbinical influence be the source of this command?

Actually alot of people have it backwards. They feel that the "Jewish" perspective stems from the Talmud, but tend to forget that the Torah preceded the written Talmud. Thus, the Talmud is the product of "Torah" thought. The Talmud has undergone some changes over the years, but it is the Talmud that actually teaches Jewish people to honor women, not denigrate them. Jesus even quoted from the Talmud and/or eluded to it in several places. The Talmud is not the bogeyman that some uninformed Christians make it out to be.

It is a religious book that spawned phariseeism. It is not Scripture. It perpetuates many sinful ideas regarding the status or non-status of women.

No it did not spawn Phariseeism. The Pharisees existed prior the Talmud. No one said it is Scripture, but it had a great deal influence on what Paul wrote. The Talmud is not perfect but is not what you claim. The Talmud establishes motherhood as the most honored of all professions. The wife is by far the most honored member of the household in Jewish homes, generally speaking.

You really don't know what you are talking about. You need to read "Women in the Talmud by Rabbi Aaron Glatt. It covers everything the Talmud says about women and it is rather shocking just how high the Talmud esteems women and womanhood.

According to the Talmud, based on Gen. 2:22, women have more intelligence and understanding then men. This is because women were "built" according the Hebrew contruction of that verse and the root for build in Hebrew is the same as the word "binah" for intelligence.

In the Talmud a woman named Berurya who was the wife of a great Talmudic scholar made rulings that were accepted over her male counterparts.

Even the wife of a Rabbi is given the title of Rebettzin a title of respect equal to that of her husband.

The Talmud says some negative things, for example it tells men not associate with women. Why? Not because women are inferior but because of men are prone to lust.

Women are, in the Talmud, discouraged from taking on too many spiritual pursuits, not because the Rabbis are trying to "keep" them down, but so that they don't neglect their role as wife and mother. It was not that Rabbis were afraid they the women were not good enough or spiritual enough but that they might become too spiritual and neglet their home.

In fact, until 20th century, women had more rights in Judaism than in any other culture. In Judaism prior to the 20th century women had the right to own, buy and sell property at a time when nonJewish women in the US did not have that right.

Even marital sex is considered the womans privlige not the man's. In Judaism, sex is what the man gives his wife not what is owed to him.

You have a lot to learn about the Talmud.

[Floatingaxe]

The Jewish perspective comes from the religious teachings of the Talmud, not the Torah. It is not God's Word.

Obviously the leadership of most churches today are missing something in the way of comprehension of the Word when they ignore the small fact you bring up about Philip's daughters being prophets. They were not precluded from exercising their spiritual calling. Something is wrong with today's understanding and forced obeisance to the male-dominated interpretation of Paul.

Paul was a jewish Rabbi. could his rabbinical influence be the source of this command?

Actually alot of people have it backwards. They feel that the "Jewish" perspective stems from the Talmud, but tend to forget that the Torah preceded the written Talmud. Thus, the Talmud is the product of "Torah" thought. The Talmud has undergone some changes over the years, but it is the Talmud that actually teaches Jewish people to honor women, not denigrate them. Jesus even quoted from the Talmud and/or eluded to it in several places. The Talmud is not the bogeyman that some uninformed Christians make it out to be.

It is a religious book that spawned phariseeism. It is not Scripture. It perpetuates many sinful ideas regarding the status or non-status of women.

No it did not spawn Phariseeism. The Pharisees existed prior the Talmud. No one said it is Scripture, but it had a great deal influence on what Paul wrote. The Talmud is not perfect but is not what you claim. The Talmud establishes motherhood as the most honored of all professions. The wife is by far the most honored member of the household in Jewish homes, generally speaking.

You really don't know what you are talking about. You need to read "Women in the Talmud by Rabbi Aaron Glatt. It covers everything the Talmud says about women and it is rather shocking just how high the Talmud esteems women and womanhood.

I know that women were considered less than dogs. I know about the so-called Bleeding Rabbis who were not to even look at a woman, so walked around with their eyes shut, lest their gaze rest on a female--they'd walk into walls, etc and do themselves damage. They existed in Jesus' day. There are MANY misogynistic teachings in the Talmud, which were absorbed, taught and perpetuated among the Jewish leaders of Jesus' Day, no matter when it came into existence. Men had to pray every day thanking God that they were not born a woman! It never did any good to women, but kept them from knowing the Word of God and having a personal walk with God. Jesus came to break down that thick wall--thanks be to Him.

Please do not be unkind by lording your knowledge over me. I know what I know, thanks to God.

You need to read, "Why Not Women", by Loren Cunningham and Joel David Hamilton, to get a right perspective. I don't follow the Talmud, nor care what it says, as it is not inspired by God, nor written by Godly men.

[Guest shiloh357]

Please do not insult me by lording your knowledge over me. I know what I know, thanks to God. Your unkindness is noted.

You really don't know much about the Talmud when it comes to women. The question is not whether the Talmud is inspired but if it is really the kind of document you claim it to be. Anyone with even a rudiementary knowledge of the Talmud can show you why you are wrong.

According to the Talmud, based on Gen. 2:22, women have more intelligence and understanding then men. This is because women were "built" according the Hebrew contruction of that verse and the root for build in Hebrew is the same as the word "binah" for intelligence.

In the Talmud a woman named Berurya who was the wife of a great Talmudic scholar made rulings that were accepted over her male counterparts.

Even the wife of a Rabbi is given the title of Rebettzin a title of respect equal to that of her husband.

The Talmud says some negative things, for example it tells men not associate with women. Why? Not because women are inferior but because of men are prone to lust.

Women are, in the Talmud, discouraged from taking on too many spiritual pursuits, not because the Rabbis are trying to "keep" them down, but so that they don't neglect their role as wife and mother. It was not that Rabbis were afraid they the women were not good enough or spiritual enough but that they might become too spiritual and neglet their home.

[Guest shiloh357]

Men had to pray every day thanking God that they were not born a woman!

but the problem is that you are subjective and in ignorance of the custom, supply your own value to that prayer.

The entire prayer thanks God for not being born a woman, a slave or a Gentile. Why??? Not because any of them are inferior, but because it was to the man God gave the responsibility to guard the home and teach Torah to his children. The slave cannot keep the Torah and it is reminder of the slavery Egypt. The Torah belongs not to slaves, but to a redeemed community. Gentiles were not given the Torah, and thus it considered an honor bestowed on the Jews to take the Torah to the whole world.

The truth is that most of the problem withe animosity between Christians and Jews is when people who don't bother to learn the culture infuse their values and prejudices agianst it into discussions like this and fill people's heads with a lot of faulty, misiguided information.