Security of the Beliver.

[Rick-Parker]

- I pray that Christ leads you to a deeper relationship with Him but that He also opens your eyes to the fact that you haven't even scratched the surface with God's truth much less reached the fulness of it.

And perhaps, being you are in "seminary", you should learn a little humility and not judge the depth of one's knowledge without knowing that person at all. There are already enough people doing that on this board.

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE

If a person CLAIMS to have been born again, but has never demonstrated a love for God or desire to serve God, then yes, they need to reexamine the authenticity of their faith.

- This isn't the topic at hand, we're discussing justification and its irrevocability.

You brought up the issue when you started carrying on about my "system." YOU said:

Under your system Shiloh justification is a once and foreall event, in which it can never be revocked. The individual is changed from that point on and sanctification follows this justification. If the individual does not display the proper exterior works however, and ends up falling away you state they were never truly justified in the first place.

Funny, that when I respond to your misstatement, suddenly that topic is off limits.

QUOTE

It is fully understandable that a person who is truly born again can apostasize. My view in no way, pretends that if someone walks away from the Lord, they were never saved. The Bible does not bear that out.

- The discussion is whether or not justification is a one time event that can be revocked or not, your side stepping yet again Shiloh.

I am not sidestepping. I was responding to YOUR remarks. Again, you introduced this into the discussion, not me.

QUOTE

You approach justification from a Catholic persepective. I approach it according to how it is taught in the New Testament.

- Your creating a false dichotomy between my beliefs and what the New Testament teaches, again that is very poor apologetical argumentation.

No, I just know the difference between Catholocism and the biblical New Testament Christian faith. I am not making any "apologetical argumentation."

QUOTE

That is why there is NEVER going to be any agreement between you and I. I see no reason to respond to the rest of what you have posted. Besides, I don't have time to read online novels. You need to make your points more succintly so that people who have something other to do than sit in front of a computer will bother to read them. The shorter the post, the more likely it will be read.

- If you can state your entire position in a few sentences and pretend that is a sufficient argument something is wrong with your theology.

I didn't say it had to be in a few sentences. But page after page after page is excessive, and simply will not be read. The reason I will not engage you is that every time I do, your posts just get longer and longer and more numerous, and I simply don't have the time to spend hour after hour on this. You need to find the happy medium 'cause I have probably only read about 20-25% of what you have written up this point and that is a generous estimation.

This board is not the kind of forum that lends itself to a long, drawn out treatise. The really, really long posts simply do not get read by most.

I can not state my position by quoting a few 2 liners here and there and crossing my fingers. I take studying Scriptures seriously, and have little intrest in pulling 2 liners out of context and calling it good.

That is fine in your personal study, but this is a messageboard, and you cannot expect people to sit here and read page after page after page and be able to respond adequately.

If you cannot shorten your statements make more concise points, then it is clear that you have skill you need to work on.

This in not the point of Apologetics nor the point of basic study of Scripture.

This is not an apolegetics forum. This is a doctrinal forum, it is where lots of people come to discuss doctinral issues.

I am in seminary and have little free time, but when I do I like to hear others out, if my arguments seem like a novel because I refuse to base my soteriological position on two or three quotes i'm sorry.

This is not a seminary, and you need to practice the courtesy of considering that others may simply not have the time or the will to read long drawn out posts.

The bottom line is that if you want your posts read, you need to clear out the clutter and make your point as thoroughly but as succintly and concise as possible so as not to weary the readers. Why do you think that is just bascially you me on this thread? No one wants to read a novel. That is the nature of the boards, and you will need to conform if you want to be read.

I am sorry that you have shut your heart to Christ, in that you have already made your mind up and came to a conclusion excluding the fact that Christ might call you elsewhere.

I have news for you: Disagreeing your view does not equal "shutting my heart to Christ. I know what I believe and I know why and I am secure in it. I am certainly not going to be swayed away from it by Catholocism.

Finally i'd like to point out that you quoted very little Scripture, you relied on rheatoric and side stepping the issue, i'm not impressed nor suprised.

That's okay, because I was not trying to impress you and I was not attempting to debate you. I was just explaining what I believe and why I am not going to be shaken from what I believe.

[jaci]

I do have to say this......

there are many that think that they are saved, and they are not!

when a person is saved, they become a new creation, they will put away the things of old.....there are many that say a canned prayer and continue in life just as they had before, other then they go to church like a good Christian, they wear the right cloths, they say the right things, they do the right things, but.....BUT..... if you look at their fruit, THEY ARE LOST.......

who are we that we should CRUCIFY CHRIST AGAIN????? this is saying are we going to become like those that never actually repent? and do the same things over and over and over..... thinking we are saved in the Grace of God, this is common, this is not a good thing, this is not salvation.....

I am not saying that a person that is saved will not sin, no, not at all, I am saying a person that is saved will not be living in sin, whether it be living with some one out of wedlock, stealing from their workplace (even a pencil or pen) using the Lords Holy Name in Vain (not just using it in cuss words, but there are many other ways to use His Name in vain), causing others to stumble by either their dress or their actions, gossiping, getting involved in gossip, even listening to it and giggling about it, telling off coloured jokes, shutting people out of your fellowship, not giving out love but rather causing division between the people of the fellowship.

I can go on about a lot of things that go on in a church fellowship.... one of the things I destest the most is the gossip..... it does nothing but tear people down.... we are not there to tear people down, we are told to gather together to lift each other up.....

those that lead others in the canned prayer, with out continuing on with the training, or teaching, with out following up with those that earnestly want a new life showing them how to have a new life, are actually doing them a disservice......

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

He that overcometh..... will have his name left in the book of life..... he that overcometh will be clothed in white. he that does not overcometh, does not have his cloths clean, and may have his name BLOTTED OUT.....

we are to live an UPRIGHT AND HOLY LIFE, we are to live AN UPRIGHT AND BLAMELESS LIFE..

if the Christian would live their lives as earnestly for Christ as the muslims do trying to convert Christians, the Christians would not be thought of as hypocrites.....

What do the people in the church have, that the people outside the church do not have that they want???? for the most part NOTHING..... they see nothing but a bunch of stuffed shirt hypocrites..... drowning in their own righteousness.......... what is going on in the church now is what Christ spoke about against the pharesis... we shun those we do not want to be around, no matter how much they are hurting or wanting to be doing right, we shun them and instead of raising them up, we chase them off........

little children being treated as robots..... I heard two children being berated as soon as sunday school started, "You better be good today, I am tired of your misbehaving, you are always misbehaving, I just wont stand for it" this was a brother 4 and sister 6, that lost their father when the boy was less then 1 year old (rare blood disorder), they have no man around the house, and they are just children. when people treat them as a person, those two children are very compliant, when you belittle them they act up......

the person that said this is "A CHRISTIAN" that is suppose to be a top notch Christians..... a week or so after this happend, her son was riding a skate board down the hill, and fell, landed really hard (witnessed by several people) he rolled and was laying there, his back hurt, I stopped and was trying to get his phone number (to call on the cell phone) and trying to get him to just lay still..... I did not know his sister was close by and had took off to get mom and dad.... there are several people there now, we are trying to find out how bad he is injured, his dad comes out and jerks him up, saying I told you not to be on that skate board (them two wheeled skate boards that twist, I have ridden one, and they are not easy, cool, yes, but not easy) all the while the kid is hollering he is hurt....

my grandson does not go to that class anymore, and those two children do not want to come to church anymore.

there are at least a dozen other children that are still minors that will not go to church any more.... my youngest son will not even go to church with out me (he is 20 and on his own, he knows the word, but has been basiclly shunned, being he lives in a different town, we do not see him much anymore)

HOW ARE WE TREATING THESE PEOPLE?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

is a person treated as they should when they come in?

I would be very worried about standing before the Lord on the Day, and trying to explain why I chased some one away, or run them off, or did not welcome them or treated them like dirt.....

I do get angry about things as this, people causing people to turn away from Christ.....

those that do, need to be very concerned about their names being left in the Book of Life......

once saved, always saved????? I do not think so.... we must overcome, we must become the new creature that we were intended to be...... a few words spoken from the mouth that some one else is leading us in saying does not do it...... salvation is free, but it will cost you everything, some will even loose their family, business, jobs, friends....thats right, everything...... even their houses and cars......

it was never said, that being a Christian was a once a week thing, or that it would solve all the problems, actually that is when the trouble really starts, just how much do you want Christ? the more of The Holy Spirit you get, the harder things get in one aspect, for the attacks on you will start to increase, and if satan and his demons can not get you on a frontal attack, they will attempt to do a sneak attack from the rear, and attack your family and friends and work places, so as to catch you off guard, so that you will slip and fall into their traps....

I have to go for a while,

mike

I couldn't agree more! From what I understand, once you're saved, you're saved. But, if you turn your back on God and continue down the sinner's path, God will turn his back on you. If you pray to God one day, then gossip at work or yell at the driver in front of you the next day, are you really saved? Maybe you are just going through the motions. Being a Christian means walking the walk and talking the talk. It's a hard life, and yes, once you accept Christ as your savior Satan comes knocking at your door twice as hard. I'm living proof right now, maybe we all are?? I agree that gossip is one of the worst things you can do to someone, especially at church. What right do we have to judge someone? Doesn't Jesus say "do not judge, or you too will be judged"? Mt 7:1

[Godfearer]

you can backslide. but it is your choice to turn your heart from God.

and scripture does say if you forsake Him, He will cast thee off forever. 1 chron 28:9

as long as your heart is allowing Him to rule you are in good shape. but when you decide to run your own life you are in trouble. however there is always mercy and grace and repentance.

[Jesus Admirer]

I wanted to submit these verses from Hebrews. They are in my opinion the strongest support for those that believe we can loose our salvation.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

I also wanted to submit these verses from John. Also in my opinion they are the strongest support for those who believe in the irrevocable nature of salvation.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

At first blush, there seems to be a great deal of dissonance between them.

Can they be brought into harmony?

I would be curious to know your interpretation of these two, seemingly disharmonious verses and your beliefs on the matter.

My vote will be for poll option 3, as this is the only way I seem to be able to bring the two statements together.

Perhaps I will be the only one in the option 3 category....but its what I think, so I put it there.

In short, I believe that we can reject the gift Christ has given us, if we so choose.

I plan discussing my own beliefs on the matter, more in depth, later in the thread.

It is quite possible that works, grace, sanctification among other things may be pertinent to these matters. So, if it gets off topic and onto these other things, I certainly won't consider it an effort to derail the thread.

I want to point out that John 10:28,29 are dependent on verse 27 before them. Jesus said his sheep who follow him, which means if his sheep follow him, then no man can pluck them out of his hand, but the condidtion is if they follow him.

Jesus also said to pick up our cross and follow him, which I believe sheds light on John 10:28,29. I believe there's enough scripture which imply we can lose salvation, if we turn back into a sinful life style, or make sin a way of life. (Iniquity) Rev. chapters 2 and 3 would imply that very strongly.

But I don't believe a Christian will lose their salvation immediately after sinning one time, especially in the case of a baby Christian. I believe God will have much grace not willing that any should perish. Nevertheless, God might prefer more from a mature Christian who knows better.

I'm not sure at which point a Christian might lose salvation, but for a Christian to live continually in sin, and sin become an iniquity without repentence, then their salvation could be in jepordy. God hates sin, and will judge unrepentive sin in all I understand about scriptures.

[Guest Butero]

There are scriptures that both sides use to show that you can never lose your salvation, or to prove you can lose your salvation. I have always been of the viewpoint that you can lose your salvation as a result of wilful sin. The only way I can reconcile the scriptures and come up with a scenerio where a believer cannot lose their salvation is if one holds to Calvanism. In that case, God has already decided who would be saved or lost before they were born, and it is 100 percent according to his will. That would allow one to unify all the scriptures that seem to contradict each other over how certain sins will keep you from inheriting the Kingdom of God, while others seem to insinuate Jesus won't lose any of those his Father gave to him. If you believe in Calvanism, if you were chosen to be a vessel of honor, you will be, and you will be saved. If you were created to be a vessel of dishonor, you will be that way, and the matter is out of your control. This would also explain verses like the one where Paul told us to "make our calling and election sure."

When I first got saved, the notion that God would pre-ordain who would be saved and who would be lost seemed ridiculous, but I am not so sure now. What I am sure of is that I don't believe one can get saved, go back into sin, and remain saved. That contradicts too many passages of scripture.

[Smalcald]

A refusal to repent of sin and faith do not go together.

So it is not the sin which causes us to lose our salvation as we know that we all are sinful and will continue to sin in the future. What is issue is do we love our sin, do we wish to hold onto our sin? We know that we love our sin when we refuse to repent and to fight against sin, when there is no change in our life after our conversion, or worse yet we actually get worse! To love sin is to hate God, to hate God shows a lack or no faith in Christ for our salvation. So once again we are back to faith alone, not sin which by grace God has removed from being imputed toward us, but faith.

I would say Butaro that you would not lose your salvation as a result of willful sin, but that willful sin is what people without real faith do. For me in actuality I see many people who claim that they have faith in Christ but do not really have faith, but only an intellectual grasping based on fear or the need for comfort or emotion or social standing etc.

I look at these people who say I have faith, but then when given a hard choice in their life, divorce or adultery or cheating on their taxes or being greedy etc, they willfully choose sin with the anticipation of forgiveness, they have planned their sin around the assurance of grace.

[Guest]

I would say Butaro that you would not lose your salvation as a result of willful sin, but that willful sin is what people without real faith do. For me in actuality I see many people who claim that they have faith in Christ but do not really have faith, but only an intellectual grasping based on fear or the need for comfort or emotion or social standing etc.

I look at these people who say I have faith, but then when given a hard choice in their life, divorce or adultery or cheating on their taxes or being greedy etc, they willfully choose sin with the anticipation of forgiveness, they have planned their sin around the assurance of grace.

Looking At People

Is A Hapless Endeavor

And The Assurance Of Grace

Is Found Only In Looking At Jesus

And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

Numbers 21:9

And Him Crucified

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:14-15

>>>>>()<<<<<

It's Jesus - Believe HIM

Of sin, because they believe not on me;

John 16:9

It's Jesus - Believe HIM

Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Hebrews 3:12

It's Jesus - Look At HIM

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Hebrews 12:2

It's Jesus - Look At HIM

And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

John 20:28-29

It's Jesus - Eat HIS Words

Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

John 15:3

It's Jesus - Eat HIS Words

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Hebrews 6:4-6

It's Jesus

Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Hebrews 10:22

Trust In HIM

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Jude 1:24-25

Or Not

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 3:35-36

>>>>>()<<<<<

Want To Know Jesus?

Call

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Romans 10:13

And Eat

Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.

Jeremiah 15:16

And Abide

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

John 15:5

Hiding HIS Words

Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

Psalms 119:11

Trusting In HIM Alone

He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.

1 John 2:10-12

>>>>>()<<<<<

The LORD bless thee, and keep thee:

The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:

The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.

And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27

Love, Your Brother Joe

What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice. Philippians 1:18

[Believer1997]

Thanks, Fresno Joe - beautiful verses!!! Blessings Brother!!

[Guest shiloh357]

The notion of a Christian who "lives in sin" is an oxymoron. Christians don't live in sin. I John 3 bears this out. The epistle of I John was written as a warning to believers concerning those who claimed to be of the faith but were not. John's epistles were all about how to recognize those who claimed to belong to the fold, but whose profession of faith was not genuine. According to John, the evidence would be born out in their lives. According to John, an evidence of someone whose profession is false is one who lives in habitual sin.

A true Christian is not out looking for a way to sin. The problem is that many in the church lack the courage to be honest about the fact that we have many false professors in the Church taking up space in the pews who say one thing but live another.

The Bible says in Proverbs, "the sacrifices of the wicked are an abomination to the Lord." The writer of Proverbs says that is because they are offered with a wicked heart.

In that passage, a "wicked person" is the person who makes his offering in search of absolution, but is not truly repentant and fully intends to go out and return to the same sin until the next opportunity to seek absolution. There is no provision in the Bible for a person who seeks God's forgiveness, but fully intending to continue living a sinful lifestyle.

In short, a "wicked" person is someone who sins and enjoys it. They are the kind of person who looks for opportunities to sin and they recruit others to join them.

And as a side note, ALL sin is wilful sin. No one "falls into sin," anymore than someone "falls" into rightesousness. It is all willful sin.

In the OT the law refers to unintentional sins. However, unintentional sins are bascially accidental occurrance such as breaking or damaging someone else's property on loan to you.

Another example would be if you are mowing your yard and your mower hits a rock and sends it sailing off and it hits your neighbor in the head.

Unintentional sins in the Bible are not moral failures or shortcomings. They are accidents or mistakes incurred the normal process of life about which there was no foreknowledge that such an event would occur.

If committing a "wilful" sin is enough to render you unsaved, there are no saved people on this planet.