Perfect Human

[BobTriez]

If fulfilled prophecies prove that the bible is correct, what would unfulfullied prophecies prove? Prophecies such as the city of Tyre never being rebuilt when it actually was. And the story of Jesus, I feel doubt towards that since it is too similar to many other stories from its past.

It's important to find out if the Prophet was a true prophet or not. The Bible tells us that if someone prophesies and claim to be a true prophet, every prophesy must come true. If even one prophesy does not happen, the words were not spoken from God.

Deuteronomy 18:21-22

21 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?"

22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him

To be fair, If I think that there is something to the bible, I would also would have to think there is something to the Qu'ran and the Bhagavad Gita.

This is what makes the Bible different from any other holy writing. For example, Joseph Smith ( of the Mormons ) is claimed to be a true prophet by the Latter Day Saints....however he made a lot of false prophesies. According to the Bible, we can reject the prophesy of Joseph Smith and thereby reject the teachings of the Mormons.

I am not familiar with that prophesy you mentioned....do you have a reference to it by chance ?

In Him,

Bob

[Osiris]

To be fair, If I think that there is something to the bible, I would also would have to think there is something to the Qu'ran and the Bhagavad Gita.

This is what makes the Bible different from any other holy writing. For example, Joseph Smith ( of the Mormons ) is claimed to be a true prophet by the Latter Day Saints....however he made a lot of false prophesies. According to the Bible, we can reject the prophesy of Joseph Smith and thereby reject the teachings of the Mormons.

Nostradamus was pretty good at making prophecies as well. Also, many muslims claim the Qu'ran has many prophecies that have come true.

I am not familiar with that prophesy you mentioned....do you have a reference to it by chance ?

It is from Ezekiel:

The prophecy is in Ezekiel 26. In brief it says that many nations will attack Tyre (26:3), destroy it and throw the remains in the sea. It says The Greatest King of all, Nebuchadrez'zar will attack from the north (26:7), and will destroy the towns under Tryian rule on the mainland(26:6). They will attack Tyre, destroy the walls (26:9). The enemy will help themselves to the spoils (26:12). They will take all the rubble and 'dump them in the sea' (26:12). Nothing wil be left, only a bare rock. The city will never be rebuilt (26:14).

Edited June 4, 2004 by Osiris

[BobTriez]

It is from Ezekiel:

The prophecy is in Ezekiel 26. In brief it says that many nations will attack Tyre (26:3), destroy it and throw the remains in the sea. It says The Greatest King of all, Nebuchadrez'zar will attack from the north (26:7), and will destroy the towns under Tryian rule on the mainland(26:6). They will attack Tyre, destroy the walls (26:9). The enemy will help themselves to the spoils (26:12). They will take all the rubble and 'dump them in the sea' (26:12). Nothing wil be left, only a bare rock. The city will never be rebuilt (26:14).

I normally do not do this ( quote commentaries ) as I like to use my own work ( silly hang up I have )....but there is some merit to them, and I'd like to take exception and quote John Gill's Exposition of the Bible -

Eze 26:14 - And I will make thee like the top of a rock,.... Smooth and bare; See Gill on Eze_26:4,

and thou shall be a place to spread nets upon; See Gill on Eze_26:5,

thou shalt be built no more: this must be understood with some restriction and limitation; as that it should not be built any more in the same stately manner; or be raised to royal dignity, and be governed in the grand manner it had been; or be built upon the same spot; or after its last destruction, to which the prophecy may have respect; it being usual in Scripture for prophecies to regard what is more remote as well as more near; for, upon the destruction of it by Nebuchadnezzar, it was to be restored after seventy years, according to Isaiah's prophecy, Isa_23:15 and, many years after this, new Tyre was besieged, taken, and destroyed by Alexander; and after this it was rebuilt; we read of it in the New Testament; See Gill on Act_21:3, and in Jerom's time it was a most noble and beautiful city, as he on this passage observes; indeed, as Kimchi says, who lived near a thousand years after Jerom, the city then built in his time called Tyre was built upon the continent near the seashore; whereas Tyre destroyed by Alexander was built in the midst of the sea, and was as the top of a rock. It has since been destroyed by Saladine, in the year 1291; and now quite uninhabited, unless by fishermen, who wash, dry, and mend their nets here:

for I the Lord have spoken it, saith, the Lord God; and therefore it shall be accomplished, as it has been; no more of his returning void, and becoming of no effect. The Targum is,

"because I the Lord have decreed by my word, saith the Lord God;''

it is a determination and resolution of his, and none can disannul it. Abendana thinks that hitherto the prophecy is concerning the first destruction of Tyre by Nebuchadnezzar, and what follows is concerning the destruction of it by Alexander.

Nostradamus was pretty good at making prophecies as well. Also, many muslims claim the Qu'ran has many prophecies that have come true.

Some isn't good enough....Deuteronomy 18:20-22 states that all the prophecies must come true....if not, it came from a false prophet.

You also need to look at what's come true...for example, the Book of Mormon may indeed have some fulfilled prophecies, but if you look at them, many are word for word plagiarisms from the Bible.

I'm just curious....what was your take on the quote I posted on the probability of all 17 prophecies in Isaiah coming true ? Any merit in your eyes ( I'm speaking of the chances it spoke of....that's a pretty big number )

In His service,

Bob

[eric]

Okay wise guy, I cant prove anything, neither can you or anyone else, You are only here to rock the boat. So grow up and get a life.

I'm outta here.

[Osiris]

Nostradamus was pretty good at making prophecies as well. Also, many muslims claim the Qu'ran has many prophecies that have come true.

Some isn't good enough....Deuteronomy 18:20-22 states that all the prophecies must come true....if not, it came from a false prophet.

You also need to look at what's come true...for example, the Book of Mormon may indeed have some fulfilled prophecies, but if you look at them, many are word for word plagiarisms from the Bible.

Well, muslims claim all the prophecies have come true.

Also, Jesus also made a false prophecy,

Mark 9:1

And Jesus was saying to them, "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power."

Would this mean Jesus was not a true prophet?

I'm just curious....what was your take on the quote I posted on the probability of all 17 prophecies in Isaiah coming true ?  Any merit in your eyes ( I'm speaking of the chances it spoke of....that's a pretty big number )

If the story of Jesus was not completely accurate, or if Jesus didn't exist, do you think the prophecies of Isiah came true, or do you think it is just a matter of people writing things to make the prophecy seem like it came true?

[Osiris]

Okay wise guy, I cant prove anything, neither can you or anyone else, You are only here to rock the boat. So grow up and get a life.

I'm outta here.

Thank you for the response eric.

By the way, is this a responce a christian is supposed to respond with?

You can't prove anything neither can I, and I am here to rock the boat? Why? There is no difference between you and I since we both can't prove anything. You might as well be here to rock the boat too.(whatever that means )

Edited June 4, 2004 by Osiris

[2bba]

Perfect in God

[Osiris]

Perfect in God

[BobTriez]

Well, muslims claim all the prophecies have come true.

Again, as I stated several times, all prophecies must come true....I don't know how else I can explain that....it seems apparent to me, but it's possible others may not understand the concept & conditions being taught in Deut. 18 If not, I'll try to explain it again

Also, Jesus also made a false prophecy,

Mark 9:1

And Jesus was saying to them, "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power."

Would this mean Jesus was not a true prophet?

Actually, this verse is paralleled from the book of Matthew and must be viewed in context. When you look at what & who Jesus was talking about, there is no discrepancy here.

Mat 16:13-28

Mat 16:13When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

Mat 16:14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Mat 16:20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

Mat 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Mat 16:22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

Mat 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Jesus is speaking of the end times here....and that has not happend yet, so that prophecy is yet to be fulfilled.

If the story of Jesus was not completely accurate, or if Jesus didn't exist, do you think the prophecies of Isiah came true, or do you think it is just a matter of people writing things to make the prophecy seem like it came true?

I find that highly unlikely. What would anyone have to gain by doing this ? If you consider during the 1st Century A.D., the Christians were persecuted so bad, no one would have fabricated a lie and stuck to it. After all, all they ( early Christians ) had to do was rescind their statements of faith and they could walk away free....yet they chose to be put under some of the most gruesome forms of death known to mankind. That it simply illogical and too close to Jesus' time on Earth for a lie that big to have been fabricated, circulated and believed.

You seem to have a handle on the Bible....please do not take offence to this, but are you seeking things out or are you posing me with supposed Bible contradictions to make an argument against the Bible. I am not implying anything here, but usually those who fight the Bible do not know the Bible....you seem to be a rare exception to the rule

In His service,

Bob

[Osiris]

Well, muslims claim all the prophecies have come true.

Again, as I stated several times, all prophecies must come true....I don't know how else I can explain that....it seems apparent to me, but it's possible others may not understand the concept & conditions being taught in Deut. 18 If not, I'll try to explain it again

Also, Jesus also made a false prophecy,

Mark 9:1

And Jesus was saying to them, "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power."

Would this mean Jesus was not a true prophet?

Actually, this verse is paralleled from the book of Matthew and must be viewed in context. When you look at what & who Jesus was talking about, there is no discrepancy here.

Mat 16:13-28

Mat 16:13When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

Mat 16:14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Mat 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Mat 16:20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

Mat 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Mat 16:22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

Mat 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Jesus is speaking of the end times here....and that has not happend yet, so that prophecy is yet to be fulfilled.

I think if Jesus was speaking about the end times it would be tautologous, just like:

"You always find the thing you are looking for always in the last place you look.'

Of course you are going to find what you are looking for in the last place you look because after you find it, you will not keep on looking.

They way I see those verses is that, Jesus is talking about how people should follow him and how he will return with his kingdom and that he will reward every man according to their works. Then he makes a transition, "Verily I say onto you", to me this means that he is back talking to the crowd rather than what is going to happen.

If the story of Jesus was not completely accurate, or if Jesus didn't exist, do you think the prophecies of Isiah came true, or do you think it is just a matter of people writing things to make the prophecy seem like it came true?

I find that highly unlikely. What would anyone have to gain by doing this ?

What would people have to gain by creating Christmas? If Christianity is true, and the rest of the other religions are false, what would people gain from creating such false religions?

If you consider during the 1st Century A.D., the Christians were persecuted so bad, no one would have fabricated a lie and stuck to it.  After all, all they ( early Christians ) had to do was rescind their statements of faith and they could walk away free....yet they chose to be put under some of the most gruesome forms of death known to mankind.  That it simply illogical and too close to Jesus' time on Earth for a lie that big to have been fabricated, circulated and believed.

Well, don't forget that the early christians did believe that what the scriptures said were true, things that Jesus said stuck to them such as "For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it"

Or another question would be, why did the terrorists kill themselves to destroy the WTC? Why would they give their lives for a lie?

Just because people die for something, doesn't make that something true.

You seem to have a handle on the Bible....

Thank you Bob..

please do not take offence to this, but are you seeking things out or are you posing me with supposed Bible contradictions to make an argument against the Bible.  I am not implying anything here, but usually those who fight the Bible do not know the Bible....you seem to be a rare exception to the rule

No, I am not offended at all.

I am seeking things out, things that to me seem illogical about the bible. The questions that I ask my sound like supposed bible contradictions, that is because if they were logical, I would not have any questions about it.

edit:

I've always thought that, the best way to know something is true is to question it. How am I going to know the bible is really true, if I just believe it because the book says so?

That it simply illogical and too close to Jesus' time on Earth for a lie that big to have been fabricated, circulated and believed.

One question, what do you mean by too close to Jesus' time on Earth for a lie that big to have fabricated....?

Edited June 4, 2004 by Osiris